Arps for Rest Strokers - Minor

Appel

It's really nice to see someone pick up an idea and run with it. Hope you don't mind, @Bones, if I kick off a thread about Minor, as I have a bit of stuff already typed out. Looking forward to seeing what you are working on, and of course anyone else who wants to add something.

We're talking about laying out fingerings for arpeggios so that there are two notes on each string. These are nice arrows for the quiver, especially for descending runs - and for anyone who hasn't yet noticed the way these patterns repeat, they do open up the neck in another way. My own approach is a bit simpler than what Bones is doing - I'm working on the simplest possible way to visualize the patterns that the intervals make inside each inversion of the arpeggio - and just as we get one inversion for each of the notes in a chord, named according to the lowest note, we get a new pattern of intervals for each note in the arpeggio.

... it's painfully obvious that minor triads are not going to co-operate with us for these two-string patterns; they can be done, with big stretches and shifts. But seventh chords work very well, and are a little less awkward. So I'm just looking at those.

To make diagrams that explore the way the patterns move across the neck, I'm starting all this with the basic pattern, imagined low on the neck (F is working fine), and then building up from there.

Because the inverted arpeggios can sound like a number of things, to ground my ear and my thoughts, I'm playing through a few chords, starting with a chord voiced off that low F according to the degree of the arpeggio. And then I'm just running the pattern up and down, shifting as it demands.

Here's the nuts and bolts of what I'm doing. I squashed a bunch of chords onto one fretboard diagram, nothing fancy, I'm sure there's nothing new there, just a mix of drop 3's and drop 2's, with the odd other one here and there. And then the pattern.

---

Minor 7th

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|
N--5|---|---|-b7|---|---|--R|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|
N-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|---|-b7|---|---|---|---|-b3|---|
N-b7|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|-b7|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N--R|---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Two-string arpeggio pattern - as it would sit anywhere on the neck:

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|--5|---|---|-b7|
|--1|---|---|-b3|---|---|

OF course, that pattern repeats again on the 4th and 3rd string, and then again on the 2nd and 1st string. Played starting from F, it would look like:


:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--O|---|---|--O|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|--O|---|---|--O|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--O|---|---|--O|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--O|---|---|--O|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--O|---|---|--O|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N--O|---|---|--O|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

... kind of the hardest, most difficult one. Trying them all,

---

Minor 7th from b3rd

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-b3|---|
N-b7|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|-b7|---|
N---|--5|---|---|-b7|---|---|---|--9|---|---|---|---|--5|
R---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|-b7|---|--R|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|---|---|

Two-string arpeggio pattern

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|-b7|---|--1|---|
|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|

---

Minor 7th from 5th

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|--1|---|---|---|
N-b7|---|---|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|-b7|---|
N---|---|--5|---|---|-b7|---|---|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N--5|---|---|---|---|--1|---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|

Two-string arpeggio pattern

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|--1|---|---|-b3|---|---|
|--5|---|---|-b7|---|---|

---

Minor 7th from b7th

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|--1|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|---|-b7|---|
N---|---|--5|---|---|-b7|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|
R---|---|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|---|-b7|---|--R|---|---|
5---|---|-b7|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N-b7|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Two-string arpeggio pattern

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|
|-b7|---|--R|---|---|---|

---

Bones

Nice, thanks! I've been struggling a bit with the minor. As you say it doesn't lay out as easily as the major. I like your idea of looking at that intervals on 2 adjacent strings then moving that up to the next pair of strings. Basically the same idea as root on 6th, 4th, 2nd strings, etc but broken into 2 string pairs rather than looking at it as one whole 6 string pattern? I'll try to mess around with it a bit today but I'm pretty tied up the next few days.

Bones

Ok, so I've been thinking of the ascending line as one pattern across all 6 strings and I'll throw out a few ideas before I have to disappear for a while. The fingering for the ascending line is very forgiving since the right hand picking is easier (alternate or sweep or whatever you like).

Note that these are 'horizontal' patterns as I just have not found the vertical CAGED patterns very user friendly (read: awkward). Again, it seems like you need to know those vertical positions but they seem too clumsy for faster tempos especially for minor arps (obviously there are some vertical patterns that lay out well and are commonly used, just saying in general). Again, full disclosure, I'm not a lead player so take it FWIW.

Ascending G minor (plain minor triad all the way up except I added the 6 at the very end to facilitate turning around for the descending line), root on 6th, 4th, and 2nd strings:

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Alternatively you could do this but you would need to change the descending line:

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Bones

Descending G minor root on 6th, 4th and 2nd strings. I've added color tones (6, chromatics) as needed to get 2 notes per string. Obviously, I could have used the b7 or whatever you like and just change the pattern slightly. This assumes that you went up the ascending pattern to the 6 on the first string and then started down with the chromatic note (#5):

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|-#5|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

If you used the 2nd ascending pattern (post above) which ends on the 5 on the 1st string you could just add the 4 on the first string to get 2 notes per string on the descending pattern (or whatever you prefer). Note that the 6 needs to be on the 2nd string now to get 2 notes on that string but then you end up with a double down stroke between the 3rd and 4th string so this pattern is not as easy.

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|-b3|---|--4|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--6|---|---|--R|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Bones

(edit) C minor, root on 5th, 3rd, and 1st strings, ascending. I added a color tone (9) on the way up this time since it rolls off of the fingers pretty nicely and sets up the 1st string to turn around for the descending line but you could go with the straight triad if you prefer:

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|--9|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--R|---|--9|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--R|---|--9|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Descending, I added notes (6) to get 2 notes per string.

:..................5.......7.......9..........12
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--R|---|---|-b3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
N---|---|--5|---|--6|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

NylonDave

Anyone else experiment the sound of the Minor pentatonic which mirrors the Major ?
ie A major pentatonic, Root ,major second and third, perfect fifth major sixth A,BCsharp,Eand F sharp. The minor version would be Root, major second, MINOR THIRD ,perfect fifth and major sixth. A,B,C,E,Fsharp.

This sits real nice on the guitar and allows two notes per string fingerings in a single position for all inversion which can feel almost as comfortable as the old blues box with a bit of work.

To my ears it sounds great as either a one or a four and if you get some nice two notes per string fingerings for it all the intervals except the major third (between m3 and p5) can be filled in with chromatics ad libitum on th string where they occur and still allow the sound of the arpeggio to pop out without too much concern for strict rhythmic placement.

Any way it is a sound I hear a lot but never find described in the literature. It avoids the flat seventh which seems to push things towards Americana and would make the scale a homonym of the major pentatonic (on the relative major)and rob it of a genuine distinct minor character . It is also not as sparse and 'classically' as the four note scale which is the minor triad plus ninth that tends to get overused.

D.

Jazzaferri

The A minor pentatonic taught in jazz and found in most musical dictionaries would consist of the the notes A C D E G. The relative minor Pentatonic of A would be F# A B C# E

NylonDave

Here is a good one. It is orientated to Scottish Music and the scales used in actual traditional tunes and tries hard to deal with the confusion caused by misguided attempts to apply inappropriate theory from incompatible melodic traditions such as Jazz and the First Viennese School.

It would be great if more people made the effort to discuss this kind of information, maybe even in relation to gypsy jazz. Sadly though I suspect it would be a thankless task.


http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/

I particularly enjoy the Hexatonic scales described as it took me a long time to find them on my own. I think maybe I was crippled by a strange reluctance to trust my ears when the simplistic theory I had been taught resulted in inauthentic results . The article is well worth checking out, please enjoy. And afterwards feel free to review the wikipedia articles on folk scales and have a good laugh.

D.

Appel

That is a very interesting website - a careful study of only just the "History of Modes" article might take several days.

Also interesting is the case of the disappearing posts ... hic requiescit in pace?

If I may be so bold as to impose a "point" upon this my thread, which I began in earnest to assist dear Bones in the furthering of his interesting point about descending lines (or was it my idea? I don't remember now), various pentatonic groupings tend to lay upon the guitar such that, more-or-less within one position (just to state the painfully obvious - mentally painful to state over and over but physically painless, which is really the deeper point) we can play two notes on one string and then the intervals allow for a shift to the next string - which for descending lines played with a so-called "g7psy p1cking" technique - which is really a far, far older thing, passing through in time-reversal through ancient Persian instruments like the Tar and continuing to whatever in the fullness of time might have pre-dated those - allows for strict alternate picking - and the line sounds all right to the ear.

(you'll perhaps, given where I go with this, the reasoning behind the numbers-for-letters in that hallowed phrase - automatic thinking follows from automatic linking, though I do appreciate the fact that this is a promotional site, above all)

So, myself, I've played around with lots of pentatonic scales for descending run ... and for me, unless it's a really fast brush-stroke-like blur or a guitaristic drum-roll kind of thing, I don't actually care that much for the way the pentatonic scales that I know sound. I may try to find some other scales on that website. It's quite a resource - if a little pedantic.

I much prefer, for a line that is fast enough to need me to switch to a kind of two-notes-per-string alternate picking that allows a down-stroke-on-the-new-string-following-an-upstroke kind of discipline, an arpeggio, or a fingering of a seven-note scale that involves a shift - but who cares what I do

I mean ... I once saw a fellow, quite a nice player, post a really fine demo of his playing, asking for a "critique" (possibly really just wanting some kind of attention, after all that work) and getting, "Yeah, it's pretty good but I see you switch to alternate picking here and there". I mean are you people serious.

I get it, to a certain degree - starting on a new string with a downstroke does, at certain tempos, lend a fine attitude to the line - and the rest-stroke, I used rest-strokes for decades before I ever heard of G7psy P1cking, and when I talk to other players outside the genre who have no interest in so-called Gypsy Jazz, well, guess what, they use rest-strokes sometimes, too. Mix it up! Have fun! Enjoy life! What's more, it's rumoured that the revered Stochelo has been observed switching to alternate picking on really fast descending runs. Had we better let him know just how wrong that is? What's his number, tell me and I'll do the honours.

Accent is far more important anyway. What is the point of the down-stroke/rest-stroke on an acoustic instrument? Is it not projection and body of sound? Yes it needs to be practiced and developed and taken as far as possible - to the point of looking for ways of constructing lines with the left hand to facilitate that sound - but let's not get quite so upset if someone departs from that particular scripture, every now and then.

It's a kind of fanaticism, is it not? A fundamentalism?

hic requiescit in pace

NylonDave

It is more about the integrity of the line I think, like is someone was winging and there were a few notes that were much quieter than the ones around them then the integrity of the musical gesture would be lost.

I play flamenco and the thumb shape makes it impossible to go to a lower pitched string with an upstroke when playing lines pulgar (which is part of the pre guitar magazines school of playing).

Here is the fingering for the Am pentatonic ( pentatonic meaning strictly any scale which has five notes in an octave and each octave the same and minor if it contains a minor third above the presumed tonic)

(String1) notes BA (LH fingerings 3,1)
(2) F# E (3,1)
(3)C B (2,1)
(4) A F# (4,1)
(5) E C (4,1)
(6) B A (4,2)

RH DUDU without deviation

To my ear this is a nice framework to look for patterns and lines in over a tonic in a minor key. Whereas I don't like C major pentatonic at all over a one or a four chord in an A minor tune unless it is really the two of a two five to a temporary modulation to the relative major tonic.

Try it.

Appel

That's nice - plus it's a good example of a broader definition of "pentatonic" than probably a lot of players are habituated to.

Yes, integrity of line above all and I think accent is a part of that, too, but the line is the larger concern. I almost wrote, "the governing concept" but that's just too close to "fundamental" ... I'm afraid our fundaments are all a-knotted, we must re-read our Rabelais, now, even just the opening scene wherein at the feast - they have to eat up all the meat before it spoils - eat up so much tripe that the fundament falls out