French virtuosos - how they became this way?

jimbo978

Greeting to you all,
And please excuse me for the long message!

I'm 34 and I'm seeking a career as a professional guitar player. I've been playing quite seriously for about almost 20 years , especially jazz music. I have a pretty good musical ear, good knowledge of theory, and a decent technique. I want to talk about the latter:
I've been playing gypsy jazz for about 8 years, on and off. a few of these years I devoted enteirly for this genere. Sometimes for hours a day. I was very strict about the correct gypsy techinque. As I said, I'm by no means a beginner, but by now I would have expect to reach a higher level (again, only talking about the technique). I can play pretty good up to 240 bpm (eigth notes). From 240-let's say 270 bpm, it's relatively decent, but not 100% clean. Between 270-300bpm it's very very difficult for me to play. I can sometimes pull something off - but more times than not, I would fail to play at these tempos.
Now, of course you can just say that it's really not that bad, and also that it's not neccesary to play extermly fast in order to be a good musican. But the thing is, I agree 100% - but this is the kind of guitar player I want to be. My biggest insperations are Bireli lagrene, Adrien moignard, Sebastien giniaux, Gwen cahue, etc.. (you got the point). These guys can play fluently at about 300 bpm eigth notes, or 200bpm triplet notes (it's the same), and can reach up to about 350 bpm.
I'm practicing for hours a day, and my progress is VERY slow.

So, my question is mostly about these young french guys I've mentioned. From some interviews I've read/seen with these guys, it seems like it took them about 3-4 years to become MONSTER players. So, how the hell is it possible? Is it something that just some people have, and others don't? I mean, I wish there was an Adrien moignard video were he's playing terrible. Or just "normal" (again, talking only about technique) Haha. But there isn't! The earliest videos of him are from 2005. I think 4 years after he started to play this music. And his techinque is already sick.
maybe some of you can shed some light about how did they became this way? did it came very natural for them? or did they struggle? any information would be helpful.

I'm really thankful for those of you who read this tiring message!

Hemert

Are you coming to Django in June? If so, I can probably help!

jimbo978

Hemert wrote: »

Are you coming to Django in June? If so, I can probably help!

I appreciate it Christiaan! Unfortunately, I'm not going to be there. I was thinking about Samois, but it's also not 100% certain..
If you have the time (and desire) I would really appreciate your take on this. I mean, if you think some people just have a natural talent for good techinque, while others just can't reach the highest levels (no matter what they'll do). Also, if you have any idea about these guys I've mentioned... how did they became so good, in such a (relatively) short period of time?

Hemert

Natural talent? Maybe, but I'm not convinced of that!

If you could post a video of yourself playing something at 280 or 300 bpm it's much easier to say something constructive about it.

The problem could be the right hand or the left hand or more likely the coordination between the left and right hand. It could also be that you don't have good lines (phrases, licks) that work well at fast tempos. Or perhaps a combination of these things or it could be something entirely different...

Bob Holo

I'm not so sure that it really is a 3 year commitment to become a top player. I keep hearing that from people, but I have a tough time believing it based on what I've seen. Perhaps 3 years to transition to GJ music if you're already great in another genre and willing to commit to a brutal practice schedule and busk and take every pub gig you can get in order to get your chops sorted.

Some of them (the young French guys you mention) were already professional musicians in other genres or on other instruments. I believe Mathieu Chatelain was a drummer which is one of the reasons he understands how to drive the rhythm of music so well. Sebastien Giniaux was a classical cellist. Gonzalo Bergara and Stephane Wrembel were both great rock/jazz guitarists. You can find similar stories among the North American players too. The young guys who "seemingly came out of nowhere" like Jeff & Max & Quinn & Roy etc. were already great "up & comers" in other genres - and they all found a top player and apprenticed to learn. From what I've seen, the best way to become a great lead player is to practice and busk until you're good enough to get in a band with a great player. Immersion learning.

About the closest I've seen to a young player who built from the ground up in a few years is Antoine Boyer. He is fortunate in that his father saw his desire and amazing potential and sought out guys like Francis Moermann & Scott Wise & Mike Reinhardt who gave him good advice and tutoring, but also - like so many other brilliant young musicians, he lived with a guitar as though it was grown to his hands. There is no substitute for absolute commitment.

Don't be discouraged if it isn't happening overnight. That whole "overnight" thing is a myth. A lot of amazing people in all walks of life are "overnight successes" after many many years of hard work. Haha. Also -- you're way better than you think. We are all our own harshest critics.

Anyway, that's my 2-cents. Next time you see Gwen or Sebastien or one of these other guys - buy 'em a beer and ask them how many thousands of hours went into their overnight success. ;-)

Rock on, man.

wim

An excellent question. I'm also familiar with those old videos of Sebastien and Adrien sparring at Samoreau, it's unbelievable their technique when they were only playing the music for a few years. Musically they are now way ahead than they were before, but their technique was already there back then. Freaks!

Gwen studied a long time with Bireli, I'm not sure if that can explain something or not. Antoine Boyer seemed mature musically right from the start, I never noticed him go through that shredder stage that many other youngsters do (armed with attitude and licks and technique but not playing tastefully until later..)

What do all these guys have in common? The only thing I can think of is: France.

Buco

Wim Glenn wrote: »

What do all these guys have in common? The only thing I can think of is: France.

You familiar with Asterix?

Well the descendant of Getafix is still in France and modified his great-great-great grandfather's magic potion for musicians instead of for warriors.
Occasionally they all chug a few liters every now and then.
Of course Bireli fell in the potion cooking pot when he was a baby, he's the only one that doesn't need to drink it.
Actually he's strictly forbidden to drink it.

bluetrain

One thing that you can do in Paris is that you can play with other musicians every single night either a jam session, gig or just hanging around with friends and playing together in somebody's apartment. I think that can be one thing that's common with the French virtuosos. They just play all the time with each other. The concentration you put on your playing when you play with some other people is different compared to when you practise at home. Personally my own playing has developed more by playing gigs and playing with other people. Practising at home is crusial but I can't seem to get the same concentration as by playing with other people.

rob.cuellari

agree with bluetrain! make sure your close jam friends are better than you, and if you are humble you will make leaps and bounds.

Buco

It does not come easy for anyone, that's for sure.

As noted, playing with others, especially better players than you, is probably the best thing you can do for yourself at this point.
You're plateauing, it sounds like, and you need to do something other than your routine to move further. Having a better player next to you as a carrot to chase sounds like a good way to break through the plateau.

It would probably help to stop practicing for a couple of months altogether.
Give your brain a chance to sort things out. Even don't reach for the guitar for a couple of weeks. It'll be refreshing once you do.
Then play daily, but instead of chasing your technique goals, just play, work on repertoire.
If a professional career is what you want to get to, you should be able to pull a lot of songs from your hat on demand...maybe about a hundred? If you can't, that'll keep you busy for a while.

Lastly, you don't need a monster technique to have a successful career even in the niche genre as Gypsy jazz. Look at Robin Nolan. He found a path through the commitment and hard work both musically and marketing himself well.

wim

bluetrain wrote: »

One thing that you can do in Paris is that you can play with other musicians every single night either a jam session, gig or just hanging around with friends and playing together in somebody's apartment. I think that can be one thing that's common with the French virtuosos.

Actually, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. You can go out every night there and "compete" in the jams.

I think it's the same way aviation technology was accelerated so rapidly because of the world wars, there was this fierce competition to improve. But since then, jets haven't really changed much in decades.

Another interesting point, the gig guides you find lying around in the bars have a genre just called "gypsy". It's a legit music there, not just a weird niche thing or slotted in as a sub-genre of jazz or swing