DjangoBooks.com
Welcome to our Community!
Categories
- 18.2K All Categories
- 445 General
- 286 Welcome
- 11 Archtop Eddy's Corner
- 82 CD, DVD, and Concert Reviews
- 38 FAQ
- 9 Gypsy Jazz Italia
- 19 Photos
- 27 Gypsy Picking
- 4 Unaccompanied Django
- 4 Pearl Django Play-Along Vol.1
- 1 Gypsy Fire
- 26 Gypsy Rhythm
- 606 Gypsy Jazz University - Get Educated
- 117 Gypsy Jazz 101
- 192 Repertoire
- 144 History
- 96 Technique
- 40 Licks and Patterns
- Daniel Givone Manouche Guitare Method Users Group
- 17 Eddie Lang Club
- 1.1K Gypsy Jazz Gear
- 700 Guitars, Strings, Picks, Amps, Pickups and Other Accessories
- 352 Classifieds
- 41 Recording
- 39 Other Instruments
- 17 Violin
- 3 Mandolin
- 6 Accordion
- 3 Bass
- 10 Woodwinds
- 223 Gypsy Jazz Events
- 87 North America
- 87 Europe
- 49 International
In this Discussion
Who's Online 0
Today's Birthdays
Comments
I was roundly mocked at this site a few years back for posting a request for fellow old guys who might want to meet up for a few sets during Django In June... now I at least know who to PM!
**********
I can sorta see both sides of the "improv" discussion. I know what the OP was talking about about the kind of soloing that gets so far out that if you had tuned in to the song in the middle, you'd have no idea of even what tune they were soloing over... a phenomenon not limited to GJ, by the way...
But then there's the exquisite melody-based improv of the sort that Django and Stephane did... they actually improved on already-strong melodies like "I'll See You In My Dreams" and even "Echoes of France" aka "La Marseillaise"...
How is that even possible? And yet they made it sound easy! That's musical genius right there, folks.
Will
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
Hit the nail on the head there alright !
An all too common problem and for which reason the original poster would not be the only one to decide GJ is not for him.
Although there are many players around who have the technique down, they have the chops, the speed and the knowledge of theory, when they get past the head, it immediately becomes a race to the finish with little or no musical imagination involved. Speed and flash are no substitute for melody and harmony and the quote above nails exactly why so many GJ players are guilty of self-indulgent showing off which is so boring to the listener anyway.
And yes, this applies to many other forms of music, jazz for sure, but also how many of us have yawned through the 'shredding' (I believe they call it today) of some heavy rock guitar soloist, or even worse, the interminable drum solo.
I also believe, as in so many other genres, the originals are usually the best as something sprang from their (in this case Django and Steph's) imagination new and unique. Now, 70 or 80 years on and several generations later, the roots this music came from - traditional gypsy music, the old show tunes which were the pop music of the day, musette dance halls, and the new craze from America called 'Jazz' which all met in one accidental time and place - have all been watered down, played to death, cliched, or even just forgotten.
Ok, the generation that revived the genre in the '80s and '90s do each have their own voice, so Bireli, Stochelo, Angelo, Fapy, Boulou and the rest did each have their own style, but now they have all been passing it on again to their kids, and there are many more players all around the world who are maybe trying to learn from these heroes and impressed by speed without maybe being aware of the original source, the music is again being watered down to a generic style and missing the point that in fact Django and Stephane were themselves trying to break out of the old style dance hall arrangements which in their day were just as cliched and restricting.
It seems several generations later, it has been passed on as some sort of competitive sport with latter day guitar heroes (many not even gypsy) telling us the correct way to arpeggiate, use inversions or work on our rest-stroke picking and somehow manage to miss the point totally that what is needed is something ORIGINAL, not something restricted and governed by so many rules.
Technique is worthless without soul.
Many on here are guilty of exactly that, and while some may be motivated by a genuine desire to pass on knowledge, more, it seems, just want to remind everyone how clever they are and, as happens on many internet forums, play to the gallery. These people, while having a nice time with their virtual friends patting each other on the back are doing nothing to move the musical form anywhere new, and certainly could be contributing to it stagnating with diminishing (or should that be Diminushing'?) returns.
Like the original poster, I too considered 'giving up' for all of the reasons above, but then being rather stubborn, I thought no, but what I will do is ignore the 'experts' and rather than study for fifty years just to be a competent Django imitator, I will take the influence of the real GJ and work on my OWN style at home for a while, and if the end result happens to sound more like Tchavolo Schmitt doing an impersonation of Jeff Beck playing Bach on a SelMac guitar then I can at least say I came up with something different. What we don't need is another version of Minor Swing only to revive the old question of was 1937 the best or should I have copied the solo from '39 or '48?
If you feel any of the above remarks apply to you, it would probably be smarter to not take the bait but keep quiet.
As for the rest, is there anyone out there genuinely taking the style and combining their own soul and ideas, or is everyone on here just trying to copy someone else but faster?
Tchavolo Schmitt doing an impersonation of Jeff Beck playing Bach on a SelMac guitar - wow - would love to hear that.
Whoa! that's a bit harsh, my friend.
For one thing, there ARE a lot of truly clever people around here, and I for one feel lucky to be included in the same group with them... I hesitate to name names for fear of leaving anyone out, but let's just start with Michael Horowitz, Denis Chang, Bob Holo, and Christian Hemert... all of them have been very generous about sharing their wealth of knowledge.
And for another thing, this style of music is very demanding and anywhere one can find support is great.
And since for most of us who live in the boondocks it is hard to find "real life" friends who share our musical joys and frustrations, this is the 21st century and it's totally normal to find that kind of connection online.
And while I have my favourite players, i don't think it's fair or accurate to accuse my non-favourites of doing nothing to move the musical form anywhere new.
All jazz/all music is built upon a knowledge of what has come before, and not everybody has the instinctive ability to internalize the past and achieve their own musical vision at an early age like my favourite musicians... Django, Bix, Lang, Grappelli, Venuti, etc etc.
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
The note clarity whilst fingerpicking on these guitars makes for an interesting change from the usual flattop sound.
And I still perceive this site as being a very positive place, all in all. Not perfect, of course, but what is?
And I've never really noticed or cared how frequently other members post, so that doesn't bother me either.
Perhaps I am living in a fool's paradise?
But for a 66 year old guy like me, it's still a thing of wonder to be sitting here in Canada, talking about music, guitars, Django, etc. with a total stranger in NSW Australia...
You young punks of today will just have to cut some more slack for us oldsters with nothing better to do than hang around here!
Because, remember, one day you, too, will be a pathetic old geezer...
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
Hah, I am only 3 years behind you, but old geezer or not, I just do not have the time to waste reading self-promotional, one-upmanship, name-dropping ego rants. I need all the time I can get trying to keep the 'pompe' in time and working out how to adapt some post-Django standards (Lennon- McCartney, Bacharach-David etc) to a Hot Club swing style.