Dry rhythm, the un-pomp

Buco

Ha, nice Jim
Can't find peace with it.

Jim Kaznosky

I like the consistency.

bohemewarbler

I think Kevin and Robin Nolan in that video are overstating the geographic differences in rhythm playing style.

Many of the contemporary French players use the upstroke when it suits the performance. They're not playing just downstroke all the time, as #607 Selmer III demonstrates.

And not all players from the Netherlands can be expected to use the upstroke on their 1 and 3 beats. For example, Max Baggerman does a great job using only down strokes on his rhythm playing in the Thomas Baggerman Trio recordings I've heard.

I've also seen German player Joscho Stephan perform a few times, and when he's doing rhythm, he's using the upstroke.

I'll agree with @opous20000 that the recordings that Gonzalo has put out himself with his own band can sound a bit heavy handed. However, if you see him live, it's a total different experience, and in my opinion, a much better experience. It's one thing I've noticed because I've also seen Gonzalo perform on a few different occasions and have purchased some of his recordings. There's a difference.

In a final thought...An added feature that seems to have come along mostly with the all downstroke rhythm style is the incorporation of the "muted chuck" on the 2 and 4 beats. Although it's used with the upstroke style as well, without that muted chuck, the all downstroke style doesn't work as wel to my ears because the 1 and 3 then sounds too much like the 2 and 4 and it loses much of its energy.

Jazzaferri

To me the best rhythm in "Gypsy" jazz is the stuff Django played on the all stars recording with him on guitar along with trumpet clarinet and bass.

He doesn't play the same thing all the way through a single chorus let alone the whole tune.

NylonDave

There are four beats in a bar. Learn to anticipate each one in turn with a n upstroke. You've learned four things.

Make two bar phrases, one upstroke per bar there is a geometrical pattern.
1,1
1,2
1,3
1,3
2,1
2,2, etc etc

etc

You will have learned a lot. Maybe you will develop some preferences and insight. You will certainly gain some control and technique. And also learn a few dozen options to choose from when playing.

If, instead of trying something like that, you choose to believe youtube 'teachers' with concrete answers to subtle question you will learn less than nothing.

You see when you know nothing you actually know know one thing that is true, that you know nothing. When you choose to believe something you have been told then you are moving backwards, towards delusion.

If you choose to debate half truths then are pulling others with you as you rush backwards.

It seems that that is what the internet is for.

If you think Robin Nolan is more reliable than Gonzalo Bergara at anything related to the guitar then let me assure you that Robin himself would be the last person on earth to agree with you.

He has more youtube followers though, so maybe I am wrong.

Maybe you could send a selection of plectrums to some professional players and ask them to record themselves with them, each in turn, and send them to you for your expert analysis. Never forget to rule out the plectrum before you check your ears, brain, fingers and sanity.

D.

opus20000

NylonDave wrote: »

If you think Robin Nolan is more reliable than Gonzalo Bergara at anything related to the guitar then let me assure you that Robin himself would be the last person on earth to agree with you.
D.

Actually there's a video (if l find it again I'll post it) where Kevin Nolan was talking about how Gonzalo was impressed with some slap rhythms Kevin was doing and was asking his advice about it, so what it's not really what "I think" as I do not speak for or assure for anyone, rather form my own opinions, and draw conclusions from observations.

NylonDave

opus20000 wrote: »

Actually there's a video (if l find it again I'll post it) where Kevin Nolan was talking about how Gonzalo was impressed with some slap rhythms Kevin was doing and was asking his advice about it, so what it's not really what "I think" as I do not speak for or assure for anyone, rather form my own opinions, and draw conclusions from observations.

The Argument From Authority is just about my least favourite logical fallacy. It hinges on the credibility of the authority and that is by no means established by subscriber numbers or second hand opinions or conclusions based on what people say.

I suggest you listen more carefully and develop your ear for music instead of deciding who to believe and whose opinion to mimic.

I look forward to your report on the hours of work you did to evaluate the advice on playing that I gave above. You may disagree entirely on it's validity but at least you will have conducted the experiment and will be able to base your opinion on your own experience.

I've listened to Gonzalo and to Robin, I'm pretty sure who is the better example. You think Robin might disagree, I think you underestimate him.

D.

opus20000

Oh dear, all this deep "reasoning" yet the party concludes something without knowing anything about the opposing person, argumentum ad personam since we like "logic" so much.
In this case, musical background, formal music education, or even years of experience in teaching music. Thanks for the "advice".

John Gill

I also prefer the early, pre-bop sound of Gypsy Jazz. But, I also realize that I am in the minority on this forum.

dennis

I think there's still a lot of misunderstanding or misinformation regarding regional variations and even the history of how this music evolved. There may have been certain truths to it a certain point in history when there were far fewer players playing this music, and therefore the top dogs in Germany became the "German style" , and since all the top dogs in Germany lived closed to each other and played together, they obviously had similar influences, etc... and Hono would NOT be part of the German style. When Hono was at my house, and I was just scratching his guitar, he told me "oh yes, you're playing like the Germans."

Again that statement is still misleading because I've been to different Gypsy communities in Germany and you'll find everything and everything nowadays.

I 'm the one who said that a lot of modern players misinterpreted the Hono recordings and then made something new out of it. Things change, and it's now a new school.

I think sound certainly is very important, and it's not about upstroke or downstroke, it 's just about a certain quality of sound / dynamics, that makes you want to dance. And then there's the timing as well.

There are also situations for various kinds of rhythms and the bass player has a big role in influencing the sound as well. The presence of a drummer would also influence how I choose to play rhythm. Django changed his rhythm style depending on the situation. When there was a drummer , he'd put less accents on 2 and 4 for instance. He'd just lightly reinforce the drums.

Anyway I wrote about all this stuff for djangobooks a while back, I guess it's still relevant today:

http://www.djangobooks.com/blog/the-secrets-of-authentic-gypsy-jazz-rhythm/