Transcribing, is it worth the effort

billyshakes

If you just sight read Django's solo for Minor Swing it would sound pretty funny 😀

I'll comment on this little piece. I learned how to read music in middle school band. I can't necessarily sight read but I know how to count the rhythms and figure out what notes are outlining the melody. That said, there are sometimes stylistic choices a transcriber uses to put the music on the paper (i.e. are swing eighths like triplets, how are the ornaments indicated, etc) Sometimes, I've looked at a pretty confusing line on the page and thought...."man, I just need to listen to this as I'm not getting it from the page." Then, I listen to it and it is relatively simple. It is in that mind that I interpreted this comment. In classical, everything is more rigidly tied to the metronome when jazz plays with that time feel. That playfulness is hard to capture on the page.

bbwood_98

@billyshakes

I hate to disagree with the above, but I'm going to - jazz (early, Swing, Django, and Bop) is music that is intimately connected to a pulse . . that four on the floor drive is what makes it swing - whereas in classical music the interpretation often involves finding places to play slower; faster, and so on.

So - yes, jazzers 'play' with the beat, but the rhythm is king (at least until much later styles of jazz . . ) Classical music is not at all tied to strict metronomic pulses in any way to my mind. check the work of Gustavo D - conducting sections that Bernstien put as strict time into rubato and with a much longer 4th beat in an measure. . (Malher symphonies).

@Twang

Man, again - I'm not so sure . . . Lets ask it this way - as an interpreter and listener, who grabs you - early Yoyo Ma playing Bach or Pablo Cassals? I think there is tons of room for creative work in 'legit' music. Don't forget the advantages that a classical background can bring - tone, work ethic, understanding of dynamics and tempo changes (both of these are very strong in Django's music and 'early' Gypsy jazz - often inaccurately reviewed as 'tricks'); and the ability to communicate with others in paper can often be helpful - though in the end it only matters what it sounds like!!

@MichaelHorowitz indeed! (oh, and so funny - I just recently took a lesson with Mark Mazzatenta on classical!!)

Great thread by the way!

MichaelHorowitz

@bbwood_98 that's a trip, I remember Mark at UNCG in the 90s

Twang

I agree @bbwood_98 Classical music often contains a lot of rubato and is much less tied to the beat than swing. I thought I had reasonably good time until I attended a workshop with Denis a couple of years ago who tore my timing apart! His message that day was we all need to work harder on our timing.

I understand your point regarding creativity in classical music but the creativity lies in the interpretation: dynamics, phrasing, tempo, timbre etc. Even cadenzas are not improvised.

In fairness there's a lot of crossover in classical music in these free and eclectic times. It'd not difficult to here classical influences in jazz either. Birelli, Anton Boyer, Sebatien G etc

The creativity in jazz is in the spontaneous composition. (give improvisation a bit more gravity if i say it like that 😁)

billyshakes

@bbwood_98 Hey man, no problem! The main thrust of my comment was not really about the time but rather that sometimes (maybe even especially in rubato passages as mentioned) it is hard to write the intended cadence as it has to be felt. The act of notating that is an art itself and can either more or less faithfully capture the intended passage. Sometimes those choices could lead to confusion when it might not actually be difficult.

Musical transcription is a written language just like the one I am using to type. If ever something happened that English was forgotten by the world, it would be very hard to decipher how each word sounds. Letters don't strictly have unique individual sounds. Even combinations of letters can produce different sounds in different words. (E.g. ghoti as an alternate spelling for fish.) We have learned to decipher Mayan logograms and some Egyptian hieroglyphs but we still can't be 100% certain how they sounded. Even if some of the words survive in modern forms, vowel shifts over time don't guarantee that we'd understand or be understood if we were able to travel back and speak to a native speaker.

Twang

Wow I am starting to feel a little out my depth. I hope that no one is feeling a bit defensive. Its fun to be a bit dogmatic/ controversial/ outspoken on a forum. I find it brings the intelligent, experienced deep thinkers out of the woodwork who are compelled to challenge the upstart. So it’s working!!!

let me bring this back to the original question. The only value in transcription for the student who wants to learn to improvise is in the process. The time spent doing it! Everything else is worthless.

matthewkanis

So, are you talking about transcribing lines or entire solos? Never writing any of it down for future reference for yourself or students? Then once you transcribe it that's it? Off to the next transcription? It has been my experience that transcribing and learning entire solos has not benefitted me at a gig when it's time to create in real time. And if you are talking about transcribing lines, once you have the line that's it? No running through the cycle of 4this in 12 keys? No modifying and customizing it to make it your own and inserting it into the appropriate places in the tunes you actually play in the gig? I believe that transcribing lines is very beneficial but for me just learning the line by ear is only the first step in the process of making it mine and having it at my disposal in every area of the neck in all the tunes that I will play at a gig. Ok, I'm ready, go ahead and tear up my idea.

Lango-Django

I will often record an 'exact' backing track ... and sing a solo or 20 over them with the tape rolling, and then later put this on guitar. A true way to examine your own voice as an improviser.

Yes, bb wood! I like the way you think! That does sound like fun, thanks for suggesting it!

As our friend Buco once memorably said,

"Ain't no fun, won't get done!"

Twang

@matthewkanis yes that’s exactly what I mean because I think thats what a lot of gypsy jazz educators are implying that we do.

What you do next i.e. running the idea through cycle of 5ths, working it through different tunes etc is a separate but important study. To do this you dont need to have transcribed the lick. You could just read a tab.

I’m suggesting that something else happens when we transcribe. Something that goes beyond “my ear improved”. We develop a kind of instinct/sixth sense. The gypsy jazz gods sprinkle us with Django dust. I dunno.

I’m not saying I believe what I have just written. I want to know if you think this idea carries any truth. Could it be the secret, the holy grail that leads you to mastery.

Sorry to disappoint you @matthewkanis but I’m probably of the same opinion as you😁 when I read it back my point is looking a bit daft.

Twang

ok let me know when to laugh