Transcribing, is it worth the effort

Buco

Since this thread went to many different directions I'll leave this here. But also because I mentioned that article and learning by rote things that you apply later in creative ways. This in a way confirms that.

I've noticed something interesting regarding the subject of always knowing where you are in the song while soloing. A lot of times you'll hear that you're simply not familiar enough with the song. But what I'm seeing is this: it's what you play in a song over a certain chord or a part of the chord progression is what's informing you about where you are in the tune. I'm talking about phrases or arps or lines that you knew beforehand (part of your vocabulary) and you know where in the song you can use it. So it works kinda opposite. Instead of thinking about and trying to be aware of chords, it's these landmarks, so to speak, that are keeping you on the road.

Lango-Django

Instead of thinking about and trying to be aware of chords, it's these landmarks, so to speak, that are keeping you on the road.

My clarinet/sax virtuoso guy tells me he never thinks about chords at all. He says if he had to do that, he would never be able to play anything.

And I believe him, because I have seen some of the chord charts he has attempted to make which feature wacko chord changes no guitar or piano player would ever choose.

Eg, a 12 bar blues in Bb where his subdom chord choice was not Eb7 but logically enough, Bb minor!

However... I suspect that he actually does think about chords, but in a different way than we guitar players do.

My theory is that the twists and turns in the song’s melody are the landmarks which give him unconscious clues about what chords lie underneath.

This is the best conclusion I can form, since he is unable to articulate exactly what is going on when he plays.

Here is my own analogy...

...over the years, like probably most guitar players who come to this site, I have honed my ear to the point where I can listen to a melody and write out the chords to make up a chart or grille... pretty easily, and fairly accurately...

So how is it that I am able to do this mundane task, but my friend the brilliant improviser is unable to do it?

Well, it’s partly from my years of experience, but partly from my intuition.

And I can’t really explain to him exactly what I am doing... any better than he can explain to me what he is doing...

Will

Russell Letson

Now, I'm not a soloist, but once I know a tune, I just know the tune. Often it's because I also know the words (or, if it's one I don't sing, most of them), which gives me a set of landmarks. But with all those instrumental pieces, I just flat know them.

I realize that's not much help, but I often try to play a tune I don't know, and often it's mostly internalized by the last chorus. What really helps is when it has a familiar harmonic pattern--and if the leader explains, "It's rhythm changes with no bridge" and calls a key, I can chunk along. For new and/or half-understood tunes, if I have a four-bars-to-the-line chart, my eyes somehow manage to track the progress of the tune and I can keep up or find my place because some unconscious subroutine is paying attention. Otherwise, don't ask me--I don't run the place, I just live here.

Buco

Will, yes I had a big relief when I heard Hal Galper say in one of his seminars that are on YouTube that your mind can't process those two things at the same time: thinking about the chord progression and developing the soloing ideas. I forget what he said what you need to do but I suspect it's the same thing I heard Joe Pass and Charlie Parker etc said. That is you work on ideas being aware of the changes and all that in the practice room, once on stage you just play. Apparently some players can indeed to this so I don't know what's the difference in their process.

PS if that last sentence sounds a little snarky, it's not meant to be. I actually remembered that my former jazz teacher in Chicago could do just that: solo and be perfectly aware of the changes.