DjangoBooks.com
Welcome to our Community!
Categories
- 18.2K All Categories
- 447 General
- 287 Welcome
- 11 Archtop Eddy's Corner
- 82 CD, DVD, and Concert Reviews
- 39 FAQ
- 9 Gypsy Jazz Italia
- 19 Photos
- 27 Gypsy Picking
- 4 Unaccompanied Django
- 4 Pearl Django Play-Along Vol.1
- 1 Gypsy Fire
- 26 Gypsy Rhythm
- 608 Gypsy Jazz University - Get Educated
- 117 Gypsy Jazz 101
- 192 Repertoire
- 144 History
- 98 Technique
- 40 Licks and Patterns
- Daniel Givone Manouche Guitare Method Users Group
- 17 Eddie Lang Club
- 1.1K Gypsy Jazz Gear
- 701 Guitars, Strings, Picks, Amps, Pickups and Other Accessories
- 353 Classifieds
- 41 Recording
- 39 Other Instruments
- 17 Violin
- 3 Mandolin
- 6 Accordion
- 3 Bass
- 10 Woodwinds
- 223 Gypsy Jazz Events
- 87 North America
- 87 Europe
- 49 International
In this Discussion
Who's Online 0
Today's Birthdays
Comments
@Buco I just read the article. Repetition, practice, does that sound familiar? Ha ha. Also, she seems to have had the idea of having a bit of fun learning math: "Playing with the equation was like conjugating a verb. I was beginning to intuit that the sparse outlines of the equation were like a metaphorical poem, with all sorts of beautiful symbolic representations embedded within it." Not unimportant.
Also, to bring us back to the topic of this thread, and to Stéphane Wrembel as well, I reread an interview with him in Acoustic guitar. Here are a few quotes that I think relate to some of the ideas in the article above:
"You don't learn to improvise better by playing scales or by playing arpeggios or anything. You get better at improvising by improvising".
"But to learn to improvise, it's not about how much you know. For example, a lot of classical players know som much more than any jazz players (...) They know crazy stuff and read everything, but they can't improvise over a chord. Why? Because they didn't develop the state of mind."
"In order to improvise better you need to improvise more. That's it. You have to start somewhere simple and just play with it, and then you start playing in different chord progressions. But it's a lot about doing it for hours and hours and hours."
(Acoustic Guitar December 2013)
Yes, I see a lot of parallels between what's in the article and music, especially improvising.
I've heard Stephane say something similar in the workshop, something like "you just need to play man, it'll come to you, just need to play".
"you just need to play man, it'll come to you, just need to play".
Yeah, that’s pretty much where I’ve landed, too.
Unless there is some better way... which I would sure like to hear about!
***
But our particular genre is challenging...
...because even if “it” does come to you, you (meaning “me”) still worry... is your “it” authentic enough?
Does it still have a faint stench of that “other” style which you used to play before you took up this one?
One can easily get that “inauthentic!” feeling about one’s own playing, even if other listeners don’t...!
(Just as was once discussed in a previous thread....)
And Django set the bar for us really, really high, as well... how can I ever measure up to THAT...?
***
Luckily for us inauthentic fakers, the sound produced by a gypsy guitar covers a lot of sins...
You know why you almost never hear modern jazz played on the clarinet?
Because pretty much no matter what notes you play on a clarinet, it’s still gonna sound... old-fashioned and vaguely traditional....
And luckily for some of us, much the same principle holds for gypsy guitars....
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
Will,
I would like to take up the question about "authenticity" because it is something I've discussed with other players and some on this board. I hope this doesn't stray too far off topic as I don't want to hijack a great thread!
I often think about this topic of "authenticity." I know the first time I went to Samois, I had only started to learn from the RNT books (~20 years ago). Some guy saw me playing the "magic chord" for a dom7 (i.e. 7x67xx) and he told me to instead play it (x7675x) because it was more authentic. So I did. Then, I started taking lessons with a teacher in the style in the NL and I decided that what he taught me was the most authentic. He was in the Sinti community after all. He never spoke about what was or wasn't authentic, but I decided that if he didn't teach it to me, I would purge it from my playing. Anything that came before was self-judged as inauthentic. But in my concern for playing only what was "in", I closed my ears to the sound. Instead of trusting my ears to guide me towards the sound I wanted to hear from myself, I allowed others' influence to dictate what I could/couldn't or should/shouldn't play. What I really should have been doing was listening to all the different ways to play the certain chord or chord changes and decide which sound I liked myself or which was best suited for each situation.
When I listen now to players like Robin Nolan, I can hear their influences. I can hear how Robin sounds and pick him out from another player. Same could be said for Stochelo or Angelo. Same could be said for Adrian Moignard, etc. That said, I don't think anyone would question their proficiency or ability to play. Are they authentic? Absolutely....to their own sound. They clearly play in the style of this music we all love but they play in their own authentic way. Yet they all have their own distinctive voice.
This also recently came up when it comes to playing ornaments. When you take the classic "tone above-semitone below" pull off effect, someone like Django or Stochelo might play it as a down-up-pulloff-down-up whereas Tchan Tchou might play down-hammeron-up-down-up. Maybe Django would have played either? Again, which is more authentic? Can someone really say...play it this way, not that way?
This genre has a lore all its own and there is the romantic story of these incredibly talented gypsy musicians "growing up playing by the campfires" learning to play by watching. We on the outside would love to capture some of that magic. It took me many years to figure out that it was a false choice to label things as "authentic" or "inauthentic." I got there in the end, and it sounds like you did too. And it comes from the quote you reference (bringing this long-winded post back to topic.)
"you just need to play man, it'll come to you, just need to play".
Nice thoughtful post, Billy... and at the rising of getting even more sideline-y, your comment reminded me of something...
I can hear how Robin sounds and pick him out from another player. Same could be said for Stochelo or Angelo. Same could be said for Adrian Moignard, etc.
OK, maybe I am barking mad, but I would swear that the phrasing I hear used used by Francophone guitarists is somehow different from the phrasing of Anglophones.... and I have read somewhere around here that real gypsy guitarists can tell in two seconds if a newly-arrived guitarist is a gadjo...
"first language interference"... am I imagining this, or is it real?
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
Yeah Will, that could be. But I don't see any (...or hear?...) of that as a problem. It could be because I'm looking for alibi in my own playing. But I'm kinda ok with inauthentic. It's might help to bring you a step closer in being fresh. As long as I can convince myself, and a few others.