The name 'Gypsy Jazz'

wim

I think "Hot Club Jazz" is not a great term, to me it suggests a particular quaint style of La Pompe, and it might even imply a quintet format with violin. Gypsy jazz is much bigger than that.

There are some people happy to limit themselves to such a narrow period of history, but even Django himself was bored of the hot club after a few years. He complained that it sounded like a train or something, I don't remember the exact quote - maybe somebody else has it :)

JasonS

In America the term 'Gypsy Jazz' usually conveys a narrower focus than 'Hot Jazz' in my experience. If you say Gypsy Jazz most will understand that you mean the music pioneered by Django & Grappelli using, generally, the traditional instrumentation.

On the other hand Hot Jazz will often be used to describe early 20th century jazz coming out of New Orleans in the American south. 'Dixieland' is sometimes used interchangeably with Hot Jazz as well.

Of course all of this music has some commonalities and much of the repertoire is shared nowadays. I think, generally speaking, you'll mostly get the same crowd of players and audience members when using either term though.

Jangle_Jamie

Thanks for the comments. Wim Glenn, what is your 503 guitar?

wim

It's a replica of Selmer #503, built by Jean Barault.

MichaelHorowitz

When I took lessons with Fapy we had a conversation about the term "Gypsy" that went something like this:

Fapy: How do you define a "Gypsy?"

Michael: Someone who traditionally lived a traveling lifestyle.

Fapy: So in America, where are most of the people from?

Michael: From many places, but many with ancestors from Europe.

Fapy: So, most Americans are descendants of people who traveled from one continent to another?

Michael: Yes.

Fapy: Ah, so Americans are the real Gypsies!

😀

With regards to the term Gypsy Jazz, I asked many of the Sinti about it and none of them had a problem with it. In fact, it was largely seen as an effective marketing tool. This is probably at least partially due to the fact it's an English word which they don't have any history with. The Dutch word zigeuner was definitely deemed to be derogatory. Also, they really don't like being lumped in with the Roma with whom they don't generally feel any special kinship with and sometimes are outright hostile towards.

pdg

I was once in a group which we called the Europa Jazz Quartet. It vaguely implied some sort of European influence, without being specific.

Nowadays, it seems the bigger the name of the guitarist, the less likely a clever or fanciful Gypsy-related name is used for the name of the group.

Buco

You could say that Django started something that eventually morphed into gypsy jazz but back then they just played jazz using the means they had. When you look at it, it was a fairly narrow period of time that he played that style even compared to his relatively short career. He moved on.

As this discussion is developing, I actually feel Gypsy Jazz should definitely be used. Because it's really the European Gypsy community that carried the torch for decades until this music became global. Still a niche within a niche but now it's found everywhere around the world. I think without it, we'd be listening to Django's recordings but chances are there wouldn't be a thriving scene we have today if it didn't become their folk music of sorts. By using "Gypsy Jazz" we're actually honoring the people who made sure LaPompe never stopped.

Jim Kaznosky

For me, when I explain what I play (in this style), Gypsy Jazz has a name and style recognition with the types of players I interact with. Gypsy swing, jazz manouche, hot club swing, and all of the other variants usually result in blank stares. Even if I say Django style, I may get some recognition, but GJ gets it. I wouldn't overthink it.

JasonS

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/112954#Comment_112954

This is a good point about the relationship between Sinti and Roma people. I've encountered the suggestion of rebranding the genre as 'Roma Jazz' which I imagine many Sinti would find offensive.

Russell Letson

Years ago, a friend who worked for the Small Business Administration attended a conference focusing on business opportunities for Native Americans, and he noted tensions and dislikes among the various tribes. What looked from the outside like a homogeneous group ("American Indians") was not internally uniform, like Velveeta.

So it's not suprising that a term like "gypsy" can conceal similar tensions. Combine that with the current hypersensitivity to group descriptors and the tendency of people to call each other out over (sometimes trivial or misunderstood or misperceived) slights and slurs and you get a nice socio-political-linguistic mess.

The usual sensible solution is to call people by their preferred names and labels--but then you come up against the fact that some of those preferences do not apply uniformly across what looks like a single group. "Identity" can be lumpy.

And don't call me Shirley.