Intonation (here we go again)

MikeK · January 31

I know we've discussed intonation before, but I'm wondering if it's unrealistic to expect great intonation on a gypsy jazz guitar in the under $2K range (like all of the ones I've owned). And if it is unrealistic, how much do I have to spend to get it. Paul? Anyone else? I've owned 5 Altamiras (all of which I've loved) & now a Gitane DG-320 (which I love), but they all seem to have minor intonation issues, to varying degrees. If I'm expecting too much for the price range, I'm willing to accept that. Or could I hope that the right luthier could get my guitars closer to perfect? I get setups once a year, but that element always seems to be about the same. It usually doesn't bother me, but sometimes it does.

littlemark · January 31

You play guitar. It will never be perfect. Even if you have a compensated bridge. The guitar is an imperfect design. I don't think the price range is the issue, I'll bet they use CNC to cut the fret slots.

Side question: what do you get set up every year? How much can change?

MikeK · February 1

Thanks Littlemark. To answer to your side question(s):

I get setups every year because I play an average of 130 gigs a year & I feel like it's a small price to pay to have someone who's more knowledgeable than me put their eyes (and hands) on my guitars to keep them in tip-top shape. With the constant temperature & humidity changes & the beatings my guitars take on the bandstand, I feel like they need a tune-up annually to keep the action reasonable, clean the fretboard, and above all--to tweak that pesky intonation.

voutoreenie · February 1

Mike, I can only give my experience and after having started off on a Gitane for 4 years, I do think well-made luthier guitars from a reputable builder tend to have better intonation, certainly right out of the case. I should also qualify that I'm speaking more to 12th fret and above in the higher register, which is where it becomes way more noticeable than 0-12 or at least to my ears.

Also, the temperature/humidity shift thing you mention is pretty huge...I've actually noticed that some of my guitars seem to close up a bit depending season and because of that, I actually switch up which one's my primary for months at a time due to the "seasonality" they display (apparently, I got some fickle instruments lol). My buddy who gigs at as much or more than you tends to do a similar thing in terms of switching guitars out during different seasons, almost on a weekly basis (he also switches between using luthier and factory models, just whatever option is playing the best).

Anyway, since I'm babbling now, while I don't necessarily think a luthier guitar solves all your issues, it could still be a revelatory moment for you after playing factory models for so long...when I got my Dupont, it was clearly a huge step and still is, which was also really inspiring to practice even more. But that said, I still love playing my M10 even tho she can be a bit more "temperamental" at times lol. And I also just got so enamored by the new Eastman DM3 so I decided to buy one, which I'm sure I'll be gigging with at some point lol.

One last thought, have you experimented with different bridges? Might be worth looking at before dropping the coin on an expensive axe, especially if your luthier is good and can set them properly.

Buco · February 1

I wouldn't expect any correlation between the price/quality vs intonation with Altamira.

For a while I noticed that my guitar wasn't intonating well at some spots. But lately I don't. I make sure to intonate the bridge when I change strings. Use the tuner, tune open high E and make sure it's in tune at the 12th fret, you know the drill. That usually ends up being exactly the distance scale wise, zero fret to 12th, and 12th fret to the bridge. The intonate low E done. This process doesn't take more than 2, 3 minutes max in case I have to tweak the bridge a bit. When I change strings, I remove all at once, wipe down the fretboard, remove the grime and dirt and wipe the whole guitar usually. So that's why I need to make sure the bridge is where it's supposed to be.

Also, and I know I got some raised eyebrows for this before, but this me not noticing intonation issues also coincided with when I started using the polytune clip on tuner. So, I was speculating that maybe it is using some algorithm to "just" tune the guitar. You strum all the strings at once and it'll show what's in tune or it's sharp/flat. At any rate this is by far the most convenient tuner I've used. Whatever the case is my intonation issues aren't noticeable anymore to my ear.

There's also that joke; "how do you tune a guitar? No one knows, it's never been done."

Joonas · February 1

@Buco Interesting, I have the Peterson StroboPlus table tuner and this has also some tempered tuning option for guitar but I've never really given it a try, always used the chromatic.

bbwood_98 · February 1

I wonder if anyone who is sensitive to this has tried the Alex Bishop multi-scale gypsy guitars? Also I find that very high action has a huge impact on this as if you have to bend the string to press down to the fret it has a tendency to be sharp - especially above say 9th or 10th fret.

B

paulmcevoy75 · February 1

Just responding to a couple of things:

Multi Scale doesn't have any effect on intonation. The issue is that each string gauge needs a slightly different string length to intonate properly. But multiscale just gives you a different string length for each string. The intonation comes from the bridge being adjusted. Hard to explain but basically if you made a straight saddle for a multiscale guitar, it would be just as out of tune as a regular scale guitar with a straight saddle.

My opinion is that unless you have string compensation on every string, you won't get the intonation as close as it can be. Most gypsy bridges that I see aren't intonated and it's pretty hard to intonate one because it ends up being a pretty irregular shape.

What I did for my bridge was take a straight saddle bridge and move it backwards and forwards for each string until it was properly intonated, and then mark that length. Then I used my CAD modeler to model the bridge top line and then connect it. They look pretty weird.

I think they intonate very well. It is absolutely true that all guitars are out of tune, and things I've experimented with, like compensated nuts on classical guitars take up absurd amounts of my time and ultimately you lose the perfect intonation 5 minutes after because the strings also stretch and stuff. But also getting stuff as dialed in as possible helps...if you start from approaching perfect, it's going to take longer for it to go out.

Anyway, for me I try to keep the fingerboard as flat as possible, the action relatively low and then I have my funky bridge and that's as good as I can do. The higher your strings are, the more they are going to stretch weirdly in the higher positions. So keeping your action moderate will help.

I don't really believe in tempered tuning btw. If your strings are tuned to equal temperament and your fretting system is equally tempered, your guitar should be in tune. I think tempered tunings are usually to compensate for a guitar with some problems, usually with the nut. Selmers are definitely at an advantage here with the zero fret which is a great thing.

Pulling this all out of my a33, quite possibly wrong. It's a pretty wishy washy issue to discuss. And for the record I'm not selling the bridges separately at this point. Maybe sometime. But they'd have to be fit to each guitar. And the compensation could be different for each instrument.

paulmcevoy75 · February 1

For your guitar though, I would intonate the high and low E strings so that the open string and the 12th fret are in tune. This might put your bridge out of alignment with the moustaches. Then I would take a razor blade and make a tiny scratch on the tailpiece side of the bridge on the bass and treble side (as long as you like your bridge and are going to keep it). That way if you take your strings off the guitar you can put it back there. But you want to be DAMN sure it's in the right place.

If you wanted to you could fiddle with the bridge so that each string was equally out of tune but if the bridge is a straight saddle, something is always going to be out so it's just the high and low. It is also good to keep in mind that 99.999% of the music we all love was done on guitars that were somewhat "out".

I usually use the TE Tuner app, it's quite good. I haven't had super good luck with strobe tuners and the good ones are crazy expensive.