Keep downstrokes on the beat?

daniel108

Hey all, with gypsy picking, when crossing strings with downstrokes, is there also an effort to keep downstrokes landing on the beat?

Say you’re playing a an ascending line starting on open B string to open E string, then continuing up the E string to the octave (just a simple scalar run). If you strictly keep downstrokes on beats, the string change can sometimes force two downstrokes in a row. So it can become down - down (string change) - down (on beat) - up - down.

I’m fine with the rest stroke and crossing strings, but that extra down stroke starts to feel pretty awkward at speed. How do people usually handle this?

littlemark

I've never heard of anyone doing that.

voutoreenie

I usually follow the traditional advice of downstrokes for switching strings so (almost) always on 1/4 notes and anything licks/phrases that are slower. Upstrokes for playing 1/8 notes on the same string. Although that said, I do cheat on a few fast licks, so long as the projection from the up stroke matches the downs and the lick sounds "clean" when being played. But main point is downstrokes generally have much more ideal tone, which is why it's good to use them always on the slower stuff.

Say you’re playing a an ascending line starting on open B string to open E string, then continuing up the E string to the octave (just a simple scalar run).

I'm having trouble conceptualizing this...are you saying the note progression is something like (open) B, (open) E, one more note (?) and finishing up on B at the 8th fret on the high E to complete the octave?

I’m fine with the rest stroke and crossing strings, but that extra down stroke starts to feel pretty awkward at speed. How do people usually handle this?

Do you mean the down stroke from open B to open E? If so, that sounds kinda like kicking into the Dinah lick (D, E, Gb, G, Gb, E, D) where it's a combination of sweeps and picking. And to that end, while ascending and playing double downs, vast majority of the time it's going to be sweeping into the next string and that technique can take time/practice to bring up to speed (especially when transitioning into alternate picking immediately after).

Hopefully that makes sense...I thought it did but reading back now I'm not so sure.

e: corrected Dinah lick notes

Joonas

No, usually not. But in the Hal Leonard Gypsy Jazz book it is advised to end a phrase with a downstroke, which could mean two downstrokes in a row. I've also noticed (as much as I've been able to analyze his playing, I have his DVD) that Stochelo Rosenberg prefers to start, in an ascending-descending lick, the descent with a downstroke, which could mean two downstrokes on the high E. And I myself like to play like this too, although I don't have the speed. Basically, wherever you want to, and if you're able to, you can "correct" the pattern with two or more downstrokes on a single string. But in Stochelo's case, what I just described, could actually mean that he deliberately starts the descent with a downstroke on an upbeat. But I think there is an explanation to that too. This way, if he has many following string changes he can make the first one easier, because that way he makes the first string change from an upstroke, if he just played two notes on the high E.

paulmcevoy75

Not totally sure what you're asking but afaik with basic gypsy picking you're really not concerned with what part of the beat you're on. It's not really correlated to the rhythm of the phrase.

It's mostly related to how many notes go on each string.

Certainly people do different things but in general I don't think the rhythm is controlling things.

If you have a descending phrase that starts with 3 notes on the highest string though, you can start on an upstroke so the next string gets a downstroke. But you can only do that for the first string. After that, if you have an odd number of notes, you'll end up doing a double down to descend.

rarely_plays

I think if you can do it, it will sound better, but it’s more difficult.

daniel108

Thanks for all the comments. Seems like my post caused a bit of confusion. I haven't played Gypsy in a while, but I first learned rest stroke in Gypsy and now play sarod, which uses the same rest stroke technique when crossing strings. Thing is that they have a less methodical way of thinking and talking about it. So I was just trying to extract the thinking from Gypsy to my instrument!

So just to be clearer, one example of a phrase would be a chromatic run like this:

D# (on B string) - E (open E string) - F - F# - G - G# - A - A-# - B

Where the strokes are:

down - down (string change) - down (keep on the beat) - up - down - up - down - up - down

Just to add another note about this, I've just seen some videos talking about the "double tap", where the first down stroke is played more with a flick and is followed by the actual rest stroke. So perhaps it's an issue of adjusting technique.

Or it seems like some of you have suggested that it isn't actually important to keep the downbeat, so then would you replace that last down stroke with an up stroke and then finish the phrase with an upstroke?

Appreciate the input!

wim

I think the answer is that yes, some players do that, including Django.

If you slow down the chromatic “ending” phrase on the j’attendrai video you can see that he plays it like this:

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1

  D U D D U D D D

So he is starting the phrase with a downstroke (habitually?) but making the beats 3 and 1 downstrokes (instinctively?). And, I presume, ensuring the phrase ends with a downstroke.

Another case study is to see the way Stochelo usually plays diminished seventh arpeggios (ascending). A lot of players just play 2 notes per string and then it’s alternate picking. But Stochelo plays all downstrokes, even at cracking tempos. If you think of them as successive minor thirds swept across pairs of strings, rather than successive minor thirds on the same string, then using all downstrokes somehow feels more ergonomic. Try it!

Buco

When in class with Joscho, he said he doesn't think about down on every string change as much as to play downstroke on the strong beat especially when playing triplets, downstroke on every first in the group.

littlemark

I think a down stroke on the first note of triplets is more common.

Or as others have said ending a phrase on an downstroke.

Joonas

The theory that you should always play a downstroke on the downbeat goes with alternate picking, E.g Johnny Smith, who explains his playing in this video: JOHNNY SMITH INTERVIEW . Nothing wrong with it, it's just a different way to use a pick.