Saga Gitane 250M Opinions Wanted

Shawn

Elliot wrote:

I say sell off all competition for your attention, stay faithful to your Manouche and reap the rewards of sounding like you - whatever guitar you play.

Thats all fine and dandy, and while Gypsy Jazz remains my primary objective, I also play other styles as well. I have an Archtop for a smoother sound than any Selmer can give...playing Benson, Christian or Wes on a Selmer is just not the same, a D-Hole Selmer for Rhythm playing, an Oval Hole Selmer for Lead, and a Fender Stratocaster (which albeit doesn't get much use these days). Plus, I have two violins, a banjo, a uke, and a mandolin.

I really can't see myself parting with any of my instruments, whether its a case of gear"itis" or not, each of my instruments have their time, place, and need...although my wife would tend to disagree with this

Plus, a well made guitar is also a piece of artwork, and I appreciate good art. Tell me a museum in the world that wouldn't want more than one Cezanne or Monet in its collection!

Elliot

I agree with you, but keep in mind that you are an artist, not a museum, and that Cezanne never needed to paint a Monet. Admittedly I'm being somewhat of a monomaniac, but I assume we are discussing learning and developing, primarily, not performing. After one achieves mastery, then it is the right tool for the right job, (or in the limited slice of GJ, playing well on any Selmac one can find like so many of these guys do, just for the challenge.)

I somewhat regret selling my Tele, my Strat, my flatop, they were all great instruments, but I found that the demands of playing each one, the way I fret the notes, or even hold the guitar, were just getting in the way of learning the habits I need to improve in GJ, which I consider to be much more classical in nature than blues, or even Benson or Christian oriented jazz when it comes to the physical playing. And you know what? I find it easy when I listen to some of the more established, older US bands to tell who came at this from a 45 degree angle through Benson, Wes, etc, or even Texas Swing.

I believe Birelli realized this and decided he was going backward, not forward, before he decided to return to GJ, and many people still have a problem with his playing because of it, despite the opinions of aspiring players that he is, even now, 'stretching out' or 'breaking the mold', although that is somewhat digressing.

My 2 bits, like everyone else....

TenorClef

You know i always thought of the Selmer guitar as a really versatile instrument, depending on what strings you put on it. Also given how loud they are i find it strange that they did not supercede the US archtop back in the days when guitars were still being played acoustic in jazz bands. Hmmm? Maybe the archtop looked cooler back then or perhaps the gypsy stigma put some off the guitar :?:

That was interesting to note that Segovia did'nt have a collection of guitars over his 40+ years of playing, i believe he played a Ramirez and also later a Hauser or the other way round, not sure.

Shawn

Elliot...I agree with you there. I was actually talking about performing, which is totally different. I see what you are saying if you mean just practicing and learning (in this case going with a Selmer guitar is best as you state).

Tenorclef...I will always maintain there is no way to get the sound of an archtop on a Selmer. I have even gone so far as to put Flatwounds and Roundwounds on a Selmer and it still does not give good results (to my ear at least). I play my Archtop with size .13 or .14 Flatwound Strings that give a very dark mellow tone, and I think putting these strings on a Selmer would probably make the top cave in. I have never heard a Selmer that has been able to produce that slightly muffled sound you get on Archtops.

Again, just my thoughts...

MichaelHorowitz

[quote="Shawn"] I have never heard a Selmer that has been able to produce that slightly muffled sound you get on Archtops.

[/quote]

Hi Shawn...have you played any of the recent J.P. Favinos or Hahls? Much more balanced and Archtop like then the trad Selmers.

Actualy, Philip Nedjar gets an archtop like sound with a J.P. Favino and a Stimer:

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In general, I agree. Archtops are a different animal all together. However, there does seem to be a trend towards making Selmers that sound more archtop like.

Shawn

Very interesting Michael, I haven't had the chance to play either of those guitars you mentioned; hopefully one of these days I'll get the chance to go and try a few at Samois. I don't know whether I am one of the gear crazies or not, but I just prefer to have an Arsenal of guitars at my side for any and all occasions. Playing Ornette Coleman (another of my musical "heroes") on a Selmer just doesn't have the same flair as when I do it on my Archtop.

I like the Selmer guitars for their snappy bright nature, and I like Archtops for their smooth and subtle tones...that's why I have a few of each. To my ears even an Oval Hole Selmer and a D-Hole Selmac sound nothing alike, and I feel I need to have at least one of each to achieve certain sounds I am trying to hear.

Michael Bauer

Elliot, I understand your point about playing one instrument, etc. I would say this: when I played classical, I had one guitar which I used exclusively. I still have it (It turns 40 this year, I believe.) The Manouche is definitely the best sounding of my Semer knockoffs, but I do like the neck better on the Jorgenson, so I play it sometimes, and often travel with it so as not to risk the Manouche. I'll always want to have a d-hole, because they look so sexy! But I have six electrics, each of which has a look, sound, or meaning that's special to me, even though I never play them these days. Luckily I have an indulgent wife...

I think that people who make their living playing a certain kind of music might gravitate to a single instrument. I understand it. The best I'll ever be is a dilettante though, and since I can usually afford it, I'll probably always have too many guitars, too many pets, and not enough furniture.

Anyway, I decided against the 250M. I think I was seduced by the looks as much as anything. Jack and a couple of others convinced me that the 250M was not the direction I wanted to go.

TenorClef

Hi Shawn, cave the top in? I normally use Argentines on my guitar however i had a brand new set of AER phosper bronze 12's floating about the house and i've put them on for a change.......the top has'nt caved in. The sound is slightly louder obviously due to the heavier gage strings. Still sounds GJ to me but also nice for general jazz comping, you know the standard 4 to the bar type stuff. However i like the idea of a more archtop electric for off the wall contemporary jazz, i just find them to dam heavy. The GJ guitars are vibrant, light and just great. I'm forcing myself to try and make the GJ guitar fit into genres other than its stereo type.

fretburner

I have one, its stock for the most part but was setup properly before it was shipped. I dont like the stock D'Addario strings it came with (even though D'Addario are my choice for electric guitars) but I use Argentine's and they feel good to me.

Eventually may do some upgrades to it, but really for now its great and I play it daily.. I pick it up far more often than my D-500.

As I stated in another thread, a friend of mine has owned 3 Shelly Parks and a Favino and is a very advanced player, but when we get together I cannot ever get my hands on the 250-m because he loves it so much. He has a strong rythm but is primarily a fast lead player and he loves the action.

I also prefer it for lead over my D-500 by a long shot. If you are new to GJ and are any sort of lead player then this guitar is a good choice for the cost.

Quite a few electric guitar whiz friends of mine, who dont know GJ in the slightest, are absolutely thrilled by the action..

Makes sense that Jorgenson preferred this guitar during his jump into this style from electric.

Ive also played a 250-m that had a Dupont bridge added and sanded down for equivelant action as the stock bridge, it also had an upgraded tailpiece, and it was VERY smooth.

djadam

A little late, but I'll chime in for the sake of anyone else who might want to know more about the 250M. I had a long intimate relationship with mine and while it'll always hold a special place in my heart, the neck on the thing is so damned thin that it's just silly. For that reason alone, I'd probably get something else if I was just starting out again.