How to pick this..

Rich

Just to check i'm on the right lines:

e-7-6-5--------------------------
B--------8-5--------------------
G--------------6----------------
D-----------------7-6-5---------
A------------------------7-4-----
E-----------------------------5---

Is it best to do..
e - D D U
B - D U
G - D
D - D D U
A - D U
E - D

as the picking pattern? I'm going through all my old riffs working on the ones with odd numbers of notes on a string that then require an upward string change after it.. just want to check i've got my head round it right.. Cheers for the help.

pdaigle

I would pick it like this:

DUD
DU
D
DUD
DU
D

Based on alternating picking when on the same string and a downstroke when changing string.

pdaigle

A trick to play those licks at high speeds (this was shown by Ritary in a masterclass):

- on the strings where you play 3 notes per string (son on the high E and D strings), try downstroke then pull-off between notes 1 and 2 and upstroke on the third note. This makes the lick flow a little better at high speeds.

Rich

Thanks pdaigle. Yeah I used to play it with alternate picking and a downstroke on each string change change only I found that hard to do at fast tempos.. but in example 6 in the book michael talks about doing two down strokes followed by an up when playing an odd number of notes on a string followed by an upward string change (i.e. on the e and d string in my example) so the pick is left closer to the next string to be played.

Thanks for sharing the advice you got in your masteclass.. it's always nice to hear the masters have to think about things like this as well!

pdaigle

The alternate DUD, DUD, ... picking also gives a really nice effect while playing triplets (emphasizing the first note of each group of 3 notes). A similar technique is used by Angelo Debarre when playing multiple triplets on a single string: instead of using straight up alternate he uses the DUD, DUD pattern to create a strong triplet feel.

The pull-off trick demonstrated by Ritary is really one of the gypsy secrets for playing licks at high speeds whe you have three notes per string and is well worth learning.

BluesBop Harry

michael talks about doing two down strokes followed by an up when playing an odd number of notes on a string followed by an upward string change

Rich:
You're right about that Gypsy picking principle, but because of phrasing that kind of line is almost always played with DUD.

(Check out pattern #9 in Gypsy Picking)

The way to play the lick you posted is with DUD but changing strings, check out the picking suggestion pdaigle wrote and you'll see that although there are several string changes it's all a big DUDDUDDUD pattern. See it? Happens a lot in this style.

I know it's odd and harder to do at faster tempos but the DUD pattern gives you the right accents and with time can be worked to very high speeds.
As pdaigle said that's the way the masters do it and when playing faster most will do the pull off trick.

The DDU picking it's also used but I've found it's mostly done on the high E, like when you are playing an arpeggio going up and then down

Practice all ways and stick with the one that sounds good to you and works better for a given musical situation.
Cheers!

zlognaut

So can someone make it clear to me: What do I accomplish by picking downstroke on every string change?
If it only slows you down, why is everyone here recommending to do it?
And for you who are master this technigue, can you play any heavymetal solos with gypsy picking? Children of bodom for example?
Is it worth learning?

MichaelHorowitz

zlognaut wrote:

So can someone make it clear to me: What do I accomplish by picking downstroke on every string change?

Much better volume and articulation...which is so important when playing on an acoustic. Especially in the Gypsy style.

If it only slows you down, why is everyone here recommending to do it?

Because it sounds much better then free stroke alternate picking on an acoustic. It only slows you down when you're not used to it.

And for you who are master this technigue, can you play any heavymetal solos with gypsy picking? Children of bodom for example?
Is it worth learning?

....in general you're on your own with rock. I don't know of anyone using exclusive rest stroke picking for metal. But I'm sure at least some of the techniques are applicable.

cantzon

E UDU
B DU
D U
G U
D UDU
A UD
E U

Everyone here seems to have a different answer. Go look at my post on pick angle. I always start descending runs with an up stroke. If you arrange most of your scales three notes per string this ends up being much more fluid. It should be noted that my background is not gypsy jazz. I played Dimeola/ McLaughlin type of things many years ago before spending ten years studying classical and not using a pick at all. I'm playing with a pick again and the chops are coming back quickly.

I should add that I just bought a technique book where the author suggests using "correct left fingerings" and then says "meaning two a la Django". It's hard for me to fathom anything more retarded. Django was great but we should by no means be using his fingerings. Had he not been burned he certainly would have been using all of his left hand fingers. Django was brilliant despite his disability not because of it.

Ultimately I think you will find there is more than one technique that works. I'm not suggesting any of the previously suggested fingerings are wrong. If you practice slowly with a metronome and build speed gradually you will get there.

BluesBop Harry

cantzon,
It is not about speed.
The picking I suggested before as it appears on the Gypsy Picking book is not supposed to be the fastest, but it is the one that will give you the best "Gypsy" phrasing.Yes again... Gypsy Picking is not so much about speed, it's about the tone and phrasing idiomatic to this style as well as more volume with less effort, on an acoustic guitar.
With that said, it is a very efficient picking system and with practice one can reach great speeds, just listen to Jimmy Rosenberg.
The picking suggestion you posted may be very economic, in terms of speed, but completely unidiomatic to this style and in my opinion just doesn't sound as good.
Anyway if it works for you, keep doing it, I'm just writing this so you get a better idea of why we pick this way.
As for the fingerings...I wouldn't suggest that anyone should only use two fingers, but there are many instances where the two-finger approach works just as well if not better.
If you'd like to know more about this techniques get the Gypsy Picking book by Michael Horowitz or at least the downloadable version available on the lessons section at the store.
Cheers!

cantzon

Actually I checked out some Jimmy Rosenberg on you tube and one thing that was striking is that he holds the pick nothing like any of the other guys. He extends the middle, ring, and pinky fingers of his right hand.

I mention that because someone on this forum chastised me for not holding the pick correctly. So is there a correct way or is deviation to be expected?

As for the up down picking... I get the impression that you think down strokes sound different than up strokes. Is that true. In my case it absolutely is not the case and I worked hard for many years to make it that way. I can make up strokes louder or down strokes louder.

The idea of a more efficient picking pattern is not only to build speed but to be relaxed and to use less energy thereby retaining more energy for expression, nuance, and so on.