manouche hand crafted or dupont D-100?

Stringswinger

I have played some Manouche guitars that were terribile. (Sorry, Barry. I call them as I see them)

I have never played a terribile Dupont. Some Duponts are great, some are very good and some are just plain good. One thing about Duponts, if the action is too low or they have the wrong bridge on them, they can sound terrible too.

The best sounding Gypsy guitars being made today IMHO are Duponts and Favinos,

If $ was an issue and I was looking for a Gypsy guitar I'd buy a lesser Dupont (MD-100 or Nomad). If I was really broke, I'd buy a Gitane, though I'd have to be careful because there are a lot of terrible Gitanes out there.


Cheers,

Marc

www.hotclubpacific.com

Michael Bauer

Marc--

I hope I didn't imply that Manouches are up there with Duponts and Favinos, because I agree with you about both. I just bought Michael's J.P. Favino (arrived today!!!), so I am about to discover the difference first hand. I just meant to say that for mass-produced guitars, I think they are the best I have played, and they come much closer to a Selmer tone than the Gitanes I have played.

That said, I agree with Jimmy that a quality luthier-made instrument is the way to go, if you can afford it. But many can't, or won't, at least until they are committed to GJ, so evaluating the best of the rest still is relevant. Michael H. played my Manouche Jazz the same one Barry played, and said it was a really good one, so maybe I just got lucky. Thing is, my d-hole Manouche is even better.

Michael

jmaszle

I have played a couple that were pretty mediocre. I know that the Jorgenson models are also up and down but I had a great one which I wish I hadn't sold... it was a great guitar for under a grand. To pay almost double that for the Manouche seems silly when you can put in a few bucks more and get a Dupont. I have two which are amazing.
I am highly skeptical of the "hand-made" asian guitars... what's his name, the asian luthier? Who's been over there to see the shop, the standards, etc... ? Seems like its all playing to the wishful imagination. I remain unconvinced.
The Manouche guitars at Djangofest had to be set up and then repaired after a couple of days by Rodrigo Shopis, with the moustaches popping off (applied with double stick tape doesn't seem so hand-made to me).
There has been a lot of hype in this forum about these guitars and I don't think it is all deserved. Just my lone opinion though.

HCPhilly

Samson and Dorado played non luthier built guitars.
They were set up by Robert in New Mexico, which included glueing on mustaches. Tony Walker, the owner of the company was at Birdland,
and I asked him to have the guitars sent to me already set up with mustaches glued on, and he was happy to comply.
Samson and Dorado play pretty hard, and Samson wanted low action.
After playing the guitar at the show, he felt the action was too low,
he bangs the crap out of his guitars
I don't want to clog up the forum with all of this, [and it's
a waste of time], but let's make sure that we get the truth.
BTW, Michael really doesn't want this forum to be used for an endless back-and-forth about this brand or that brand. [Also, life is just too short for that sort of thing]. I think that we should continue this coversation off-line.
BTW, I have no axes to grind. I've played Gitans that were fine guitars, especially for the $$. I can tell you that we're a small company, no deep pockets, and we want to make the best guitars that we can.
You can email me thru this site or at <!-- e --><a href="mailto:barwarren@aol.com">barwarren@aol.com</a><!-- e -->
Thanx,
Barry

manoucheguitars

Correction. Those guitars were not set up by me. Had they been the moustaches would not have fallen off... I wasn't there, thankfully, so I don't know how they were played.

Robert

gitpicker

I'll throw in my 2 cents here which is basically worth just that, 2 cents.
I'm sure every manufacturer out there essentially has the same goal: to make the best guitar they can at a SPECIFIC price point. Some succeed better than others, and that's all very subjective anyhow. I think it's interesting though how sometimes people jump to compare two instruments that were built for two very different price points.

Ok, I digress.... , regarding the two guitars in question in this post, I'm not sure the "hand crafted" Manouche can really be judged fairly based upon the regular manouche models as (if I'm not mistaken) they are made in a different workshop by one guy, not in the factory the others are made in? Maybe somebody can clarify that. Does anybody in the US even have one yet?

Maybe no players on here has any experience with the builder of the Manouche hand crafted model so it's all one big question mark at the moment. As for Duponts many people here including myself have experience with these guitars and they are consistently good. I could be wrong but I speculate that the MD-100 has a very good if not great sound even if it costs less than an MD-50 level model and who's to say it doesn't?

Lastly, another point to consider, the Dupont costs less than the hand crafted manouche and is also "hand crafted". Regardless I'm sure they're both fine instruments. I'm not knocking the Manouche but just saying the Duponts are great based on personal experience and at this time it seems there's still very little information about the HC Manouche so I can't really comment except for its price it better be awesome. These run around $3500 or so don't they?

It sure is a great time to be into this music with all the options we have these days.

Anyway, food for thought. Good luck!

HCPhilly

Gitpicker,
Good post. [Reasonable is good!] I haven't seen or played any of the Manouche hand-crafted guitars. Nobody in the USA has seen or played one to, as far as I know. Joengwoo Cho is building these guitars,
the details are on the UK site.
It's really kind of hilarious in a way to read posts comparing guitars
that nobody here has played. I don't have that kind of time on my hands,
and we really have to be careful about hogging the forum with
this stuff, [Mea culpa]! Guys, we're are just talking about guitars,
whoever makes them. We are doing whatever we can to get the word out on our guitars, with really no ad budget. We have sold our guitars thru word of mouth. Again, it's just beyond absurd when I read posts
from players who get all worked up about what brand they love or hate.
Objectivity is good, especially when based on experience, and it's better when you don't have an axe to grind, [which I don't].
As I've said many times, for instance; If you have about $600 to spend I'd say get a Gitane. Quick story,
Jack, a friend of Joel Beaver's in NY, has a room full of guitars, including some high-end Selmacs. He tells me that his favorite is his Gitane.
I kinda' chuckle and pick it up and play it. It's an absolutely great guitar, [I think he picked it out from many]. Of course they aren't all that good, all company's run the gamut as far as quality, personal taste really matters. Anyhow, let's try to stay positive and objective, and not waste everybody's time. Negativity begets more of the same, and bad-mothing any brand is foolish, and it makes everyone wonder what's behind the hater-vibe. [In the performing arena, it's usually motivated by envy, which is really uncool]! My main focus is performing, it's always been. Tapping at away at your keyboard doesn't get you better gigs or improve your playing, but hey, y'all knew that! If you can really play, you'll sound good on just about anything!
Thanks,
Barry

Stringswinger

What Doug said!

BTW, as a further comment to my earlier post. I have never played the "Hand crafted" Manouche. It could be the best Gypsy guitar made. Who knows? The only thing that I am certain of is this: Every acoustic guitar is different. Play them before you buy them and find one that inspires you to play.

I'd rather listen to an inspired player play a Cigano then an uninspired player play a vintage Selmer!

Cheers,

Marc

www.hotclubpacific.com

scot

The Asian guitars are made in a factory far away distance-wise and culturally from the place this music comes from. A guy in a factory gets a work order and builds a couple of Saga xxx, next day it's a Blue Ridge dreadnought or whatever. This is light years away from a Dupont or a Favino - these guitars are built the way top-quality guitars have always been built - by luthiers with a lot of experience with the kinds of guitars they build, lots of experience with the guys who play the kinds of guitars they build. These guitars have mojo. If you are a beginner, if this kind of stuff doesn't matter to you, isn't important to you, or you don't believe in it, then you'll probably be very happy with that Saga or Manouche, for a while anyway.

I have a Saga and it's OK - right up to when you play a good guitar. Next to my Favino it sounds like an inexpensive factory guitar from Asia. Which after all is exactly what it is.

Favino and Dupont don't have anyone "playing and endorsing" their guitars. They barely advertise at all - and even so there is a very long wait to get a new Favino. And some people who push Manouche guitars here have a financial interest in selling them.

A fine guitar is it's own reward. I understand that a lot of people here don't have the desire or the resources to buy a luthier guitar. I just get ticked off when these factory guitars are discussed in the same paragraph as a luthier guitar. It's like comparing a Toyota to a BMW. I have two Toyotas and they are OK cars, but they certainly are not BMWs - no mojo at all in a Toyota.

Michael Bauer

Scot, I think everyone here agreed that a Dupont would be a better way to go than a hand-crafted Manouche. To me that's a no brainer until the evidence clearly proves otherwise. I reread all the posts, and where the digression came when I said I thought the manouches I have owned were mcuh better than the Sagas I have owned. As far as I can tell, that's Toyota's vs. Hondas. Or maybe it is Toyotas vs. BMW's. Last time I checked, BMW's were built on an assembly line, too...just with a better result. And that was my point. Not all Asian factory guitars are created equal. But they are still factory guitars.

Not everyone can afford a luthier-made instrument, and some of those who can don't want or choose to. Nothing wrong with that. Sagas got me to Manouches, which in turn got me to a Favino. Both were great bargains for the money, and both got me to appreciate playing gypsy jazz, even as poorly as I do. All I ever said is that my Manouches, which I bought with my own money and do not sell (just to clear that up), come closer to the Selmer sound than any other factory guitars I have played. I stand by that, and apparently, so do a few others. Are they as good? No. The quality, finish, woods, and assembly techniques are all a compromise to fit into a price range. I don't think anyone thinks they are as good as a Dupont or a Favino.

But look, alot of people who come here are new at this, and if they are like I was, they can't go to the local guitar shop and get good advice on which gypsy guitar to buy (If you ask, all you really get are strange looks.), so you come here. If all that person can or wants to invest is $1000 to $1200, it seems relevant to me that they here from owners about the cheaper guitars. New Saga or used Manouche. That's relevant to some people, way more relevant than Dupont or Favino, which reqire a pretty serious committment to justify the investment. But please don't confuse that with equating factory-made to hand-made guitars. It simply isn't. If I say my Mini is great and really quick, I don't think anyone would think I'm saying I'd whip a Ferrari. It's two different levels of good.

I have read a number of people here that have bad-mouthed Duponts. But what tells me what I want to know is that you almost never see one for sale, which says they are keepers. Enough said.

Finally, guitars don't know where they are made, only how they are made. In the early 70s, I went to Europe to study classical guitar, bringing the very first Kohno into Switzerland. Next thing I new, there was a fire sale on Ramirez guitars. Everyone had to have a Kohno. No one in Europe cares that it was Japanese; they only cared that it was a louder, better sounding, better made guitar. Right now Dupont and Favino are the best, but that may not always be true in the future.