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I don’t have any vested interest, except perhaps in my insistence that plastic picks suck, but I’ll tell you something. I don’t believe that 90% of the people on this forum – myself included – can distinguish between a mediocre guitar and a mediocre setup. When I hear people going on about how they tried this one or that one and 1 was good and the others were terrible, I take it with a big grain of salt. With a little bit of skill you could get a razor blade and in about a minute reduce the finest GJ guitar in the world to near crap soundwise without any change visually. So, one must conclude that there is no 'great' guitar without a great setup.
To diss a Dupont is near blasphemy, so each one comes with a shiny aura surrounding it. To me the difference between a Manouche and a Dupont, from everything I’ve read and heard on this forum and elsewhere is analogous to the difference between a Pantera and a Dino Ferrari, which I do have experience with. The Ferrari is better made, much more handcrafted with smoother lines and a sexier car in every way, but a Pantera is a beauty of a different type, a sleek muscle car. Both will get you there, and in record time. Of course the Dino will cost you many more multiples of cash. Despite this, no race car enthusiast or Ferrari owner would have anything bad to say about the Pantera if he was a sane individual. And likewise Pantera owners love them, well, because they are Panteras.
I know I'm being hard-headed here and I really have not been in the market for any guitars since I got my two French guitars back in '93. My opinions are thus based largely on how things were 15 years ago. I might be wrong, too. But look in Vintage Guitar. It's 90% Gibson, Fender and Martin. There are almost no Takamines, Ibanez etc and what few there are are way low priced. Factory v luthier? If you look strictly at the market, with only a few exceptions a factory would seem to be the very best place to make a guitar, Fender, Martin, and Gibson are all factory made guitars. Xenophobia and silly prejudices can't drive this kind of a market. It's got to be the quality of the guitars. I know that I've played Martins that sounded so good I could not believe my ears.
It's not always fit and finish or setup that make for quality either. My '84 Favino is crudely finished compared to what we expect today, and except for a fret job when I got it, it's never been setup at all - I don't think that setup has all that much effect on sound. But that Favino has mojo and sound beyond compare. Clearly this stuff does not count for everyone here, but it counts for me.
This is a touchy subject and people certainly do have strong opinions that they will defend vigorously. As it should be. I've had my say and that's it for me on this subject. My best advice is always get a better guitar than you can afford. You won't ever be sorry that way.
All of what you say has tremendous merit IMO.
That said, I would caution anyone who is paying a lot of money for a guitar thinking about its investment value, stay away from Gypsy guitars! This is a small market and other than Selmers (and to a lesser extent Favino's and Busatos) Gypsy guitars have not proven to be great investments. And its not about the greatest guitars either. Pre CBS strats and teles were built as cheap instruments for stage musicians that did not want to worry about their guitars. A 57 Strat probably cost less in its day than a Busato and look at what they are worth today. (Hint: the strat is worth way more).
Also, while Asian guitars have never held their value, they also have never been made as well as they are being made today. It is possibile that one day things will reverse and Guitars made by, say Eastman or Gitane or Manouche may hold their value better than Guitars that say Gibson or Dupont or Favino (though I highly doubt it).
Buy a Gypsy guitar that you like. Period. No matter what it says on the headstock (or label), how it sounds and feels to you is the most important thing. If I ever find a guitar that sounds and feels better than my Dupont, I'll buy it.
My 2 cents again. (I think I am approaching a dime on this thread
Cheers,
Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com
The evidence points to setups having a big effect on a guitar's sound and playability. Clearer notes, stronger fundamental harmonics, increased sensitivity, and I'm not just talking about improving overbuilt guitars. A good guitar becomes great, and a great guitar becomes exceptional. There is a guy named Bill Richardson in Albuquerque or however it is spelled who really is phenomenal at what he does, and I can vouch that the testimonials at the site are not merely imaginary or hype. The guy can make just about anything sound better than its owner ever dreamed.
Rob
Hi Marc....the collectibility/investment issue is definitely tricky with Gypsy guitars. As you said, Selmers are definitely very, very collectible. They have the necessary mythology (30's France, played by Django, etc.). Players aren't buying these Selmers at prices approaching $30K.
But other makers may only be borderline investment grade at this point. The impression I get is that the higher priced vintage guitars like Busatos and Favinos are mostly being bought by players looking for the best possible instrument. There's definitely a lot of mystique surrounding these builders and that helps. But I don't think these are the sorts of instruments that uber rich collectors like Scott Chinery would be interested in. It's mostly guys like you and me pushing their finances to the limit to get a guitar that has those magic sonic qualities.
For that reason buying a Busato or a Favino is probably not a terrible investment simply because there are so few of them around and so many players willing to empty their savings account to get one. When I was a starving grad student in 2000, you could get a Jacques Favino for $3,500, now you'd be lucky to get one for $8,000. Less then five years ago you could get a Busato for $4K-$5K. Now it's $10K to start. Not a bad investment really....
'm
If you wanted to buy a guitar for its investment value, you would be best off with Pre 1965 Gibsons, Pre CBS Fenders and Pre WWII Martins. Also to be considered would be D'Angelico's, D'Aquistos and Selmers.
Favinos and Busatos have done well recently. If the Gypsy jazz boomlet tapers off, the price on those guitars may fall. That said, the price on those guitars is still in the "players" range and as they are great guitars, anyone buying them will probably get more than they paid in the long run.
Any other Gypsy guitars (including Duponts), one should buy for the sonic qualities of the instrument, not for what it will be worth up the road. I think it is fair at this point to say that a Dupont (or even a Shelly Park) will hold its value somewhat better than say a Gitane or Manouche...but that is just a guess based on the past. I have played some pretty amazing Asian made guitars recently. Who knows what will happen in the future.
Unlike Stocks and bonds, guitars are an investment that has intrinsic value (I suppose you could use your stocks and bonds as fire starter if you were cold
I have played some great Selmer guitars, but their collectability has pushed the price beyond my comfort level. I am starting to feel that way about Favinos and Busatos ( That D hole Favino of yours is a great guitar, whoever buys that one will feel lucky and you may have regrets one day!).
Sadly, Dreadnaughts and solid bodies are not my thing anymore. They are the most sought after guitars and that is why Pre CBS Strats, first generation Les Pauls and Pre war Martin Dreadnaughts are worth more than Selmers or D'Angelicos (which IMO are better guitars!).
It seems that a lot of newcomers to this music are confused about what to buy (I was, a few years ago when I first came to the genre) and they come to forums like this to get feedback from others who have been around the block a time or two.
I can say this, what sounded OK to me earlier on, did not sound as good later on. I had to trade up. Compared to solid bodies, flattops, archtops and semi hollows, Gypsy guitars are hard to sell. Buy the best Gypsy guitar you can afford if you love this music, but play them first! (or buy them with an approval period), because there are lousy guitars from ALL makers (every piece of wood is different). And make sure they get a good setup! This is almost as important as the guitar. Remember too, that setups are like guitars, what works well for one guy (or gal) may not work for someone else.
Finding the right guitar is a journey. In the end though, it is a journey well worth taking!
Cheers,
Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com
Robert B
I just have to say that my manouche 14 fret D hole (not the hand crafted) is an awesome guitar, it doesn't play exactly like a Rob Aylwood (exellent British maker) or favino or dupont etc. but its got the Django bark and hands down the gitans I have played and herd do not compare ! the volume and tone are immense !!!!
After playing it for nearly a year its got better and better.... this is something people forget to mention when talking about what guitar to buy, some need to be played in etc !
As for the idea that one brand or one maker can always be reliable is not true; I have played mid range duponts in France, and some didn't do it for me at all, Ive played a terrible selmer oval hole and couple of bad casterlucia's and a couple of good ones too mind ! Be aware that not all selmers are good guitars, whats true is they are all expensive
remember each guitar made will be slightly different from from another which ever maker, so check out as many of the same model as you need to get the right one for you...
if you do get a Gitan through away the bridge and get a real one made of ebony, a friend bought a Gitan 12 fret D hole late last year and I noticed and was suprised to see the bridge was made from soft wood !!!!! What a joke !!! I gave him and fitted an extra (ebony) bridge that the guy from Manouch in UK gave me when I bought the guitar ! Now his Gitan sings !!! but he still wants to buy my manouche... hahaha
I think what Manouche guys are trying to do is go for that traditional Selmer sound, they are doing good stuff and with my guitar its on the button ! But thats just my opinion, try as many guitars you can for the same price etc
I have had few people ask to buy my guitar but I will never sell it, though hopefully i will add another manouche to my collection and a few other makes some day too !