Django's Jazz innovations!

Teddy Dupont

I don't fundamentally disagree with any of that Michael. What I was trying to say in probably an overly convoluted manner is that I believe Django's innovative contribution to not only jazz but popular music generally was the creation of the guitar as a solo voice on a par with any other.

He did that with a unique melodic approach, great technical prowess and sheer bravado. At the time, an innovative combination.

MichaelHorowitz

Teddy Dupont wrote:

I believe Django's innovative contribution to not only jazz but popular music generally was the creation of the guitar as a solo voice on a par with any other.

I agree with that...he was the first guitar hero!

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Stringswinger

Django was a huge influence on Joe Pass and other great Jazz guitarists.

His innovation (along with Charlie Christian) was making the guitar a solo voice in Jazz.

That's enough for me to declare him innovative.

Is it on the level of Bird and Trane?...Who gets to decide? Jazz historians always give the guitar short shrift. I never would have heard Bird and Trane if it wasn't for Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass. Wes and Joe would not have done what they did if it wasn't for Django and CC.

I'd posit that quite a few rock players like myself made their way to jazz through a journey that Django and CC were somewhat responsible for. In my book there are five innovators in jazz guitar:

Django- Gave the guitar a true solo voice

CC-Gave the electric guitar a solo voice

Wes- Gave the guitar a place in modern jazz with all the complexity of a piano

Joe Pass-Gave the unaccompanied guitar a place in jazz

Larry Coryell- Gave the rock guitar a place in jazz

All jazz guitarists stand on the shoulders of these five.

Cheers,

Marc

www.hotclubpacific.com

robertsaunders

Interesting to me that there's no mention of Eddie Lang here, who pre-dated both Django and Charlie Christian. I personally prefer Django's inventions to Lang's, but a friend of mine who has done a lot of research into early jazz and is writing a book on Swing believes Lang was the first real innovator in jazz guitar—however you want to define that. Curious where you guys would place Lang in the hierarchy.

Stringswinger

I have listened to all of the extant Eddie Lang and like his work. The question is this: Was he a JAZZ guitarist? I'd say of a sort. He didn't swing though. (Neither did Django in the early years). Some feel that he is a pre-jazz guitarist.

He was an influence on Django...and a great guitarist..if only he had lived a bit longer.

I guess he deserves to be on my list.

Cheers,

Marc

www.hotclubpacific.com

MichaelHorowitz

Stringswinger wrote:

Some feel that he is a pre-jazz guitarist.

I might agree with that....back in those days the lines between classical, popular music, jazz, and folk were much less defined then today. Hard to say how he or his fans would categorize his music.

Lang did have a huge influence on the development of the guitar in jazz...but going back to the originally question, it's fair to say he really didn't do anything all that innovative with jazz as a whole. He was mostly a pioneer on the guitar as an instrument in jazz.

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Teddy Dupont

Lang was a great accompanist but a very limited soloist.

djangology

every guitar player in that era added their own ideas to the jazz guitar genre simultaneously and none deserve a majority of credit for developing jazz guitar style. they all get minority credits. :-)

HCPhilly

scot wrote:

But Django's "ornamented arpeggio" style never caught on on this side of the pond - you could play Django's solos on a horn but no one ever did.
Interesting point. I do see a general connection to players like
Coleman Hawkins, especially on his classic "Body & Soul."

Of course a lot of early jazz solos are based on change running, [and the melody]. Lester Youg was playing a lot of chord based stuff too,
needless to say, Hawk and Prez were probably not influenced by Django.
It's interesting to consider that Django certainly influenced a lot of rock guitar players, [Like Jimmy Page, to name one].
I wonder if Django's Gypsy-Folk ideas didn't help to set the stage for the altered chords of the bop and post bop era, [especially his use of the dom 7 b9 type ideas]. His compositional ideas and penchant for dissonance in his writing and playing were ahaed of his time.
[Night in Tunisia doesn't sound that far away from "Dark eyes,"
especially in the vesion where he plays 5b's in the octave part of his solo.]
his intensity in his single note solos chordal solos were pretty advanced
for his time.

jmcgann

Actually, most melodies in the Western world are "ornamented arpeggios" to a degree.

Get out your favorite jazz standard. Figure out which melody notes are chord tones of the chord of the moment.

Do the same for any idiomatic jazz solo; fiddle tune; Beatles song etc.

You'll find a much larger percentage of chord tones than non-chord tones in the long haul.

This is why the guitar (oh, and mandolin) is a superior instrument- we can play what George Van Eps called frozen arpeggios (chords) and melted chords (arpeggios) and see them hang together.

The other reason is that it's too hard to carry a piano :twisted: