Early purely Django tunes?

joef · April 2005

Are there any early Django tunes written before the QHCF and Grappelli? It seems that the early QHCF tunes such as Djangology and Ultrafox are credited to Reinhardt and Grappelli. Is that the case? Did they both get song writing royalties for these?
If so, then what did Django write before he met Grappelli, and are there any recordings in existence?
Is there a definitive (i.e. accurate )list anywhere of which of the QHCF numbers were written by Reinhardt/Grappelli together, and which were by Django alone?

thanks
Joe

Kcox · April 2005

Maybe I can tide you over until an expert weighs in one this... my answer is based on one reading of Dregni's very readable and informative biography, so I might get something wrong...

The QHCF existed in many ways only "on paper"... or perhaps more accurately, on vinyl. They were organized mainly by the "Hot Club of France" which was handled by a group of passionate jazz fans, but most influential on the recording schedules was Charles Delauney. I don't think either Django or Grappelli received royalties on their recordings (maybe they did later on, or maybe only for later recordings, but early on I think they were paid for the days work and that was it).

I think the stuff Django was writing before then was bals musette stuff, some of which are available...I think Django's early recordings in that style are not his original compositions and he is mainly playing accompaniment (I think these are available on the Integrale series). Recordings of Django's earlier compositions are mainly available only through performances of people who knew him then, people like Matelot Ferret or his brother. Things like Mtne. Ste. Genevieve, Gagoug, Chez Jacquet, Choti and Djalomichto (I think all of which are Django's originals)

Everything I say here is subject to correction by someone more knowledgable...as I say, you should really check out the Dregni bio, it's great (and available from the djangobooks store).

Best,

Kevin

joef · April 2005

Kcox wrote:

I think the stuff Django was writing before then was bals musette stuff, some of which are available... Things like Mtne. Ste. Genevieve, Gagoug, Chez Jacquet, Choti and Djalomichto (I think all of which are Django's originals)

Best,

Kevin

Thanks for the info. What I am interested in is which of the classic QHCF ( ie in the "Gypsy Jazz genre" ) originals are written solely by Django, and which of them were written before he got together with Stephan to form the Quintet.
In other words trying to see what Django's compositions (without Grapelli) were like in the early days.
Had he really written nothing but musette before he met Grapelli?
We know that his later tunes( post Grappelli), are quite different from the mainstream QHCF "Gypsy Jazz style" -

regards
Joe

Kcox · April 2005

Since no one more knowledgable has answered you yet, I'll take another stab at some of your questions.

First, it wasn't Grapelli who turned Django on to jazz, nor was it vice versa. Django discovered jazz while schlepping his guitar around Paris trying to earn some money. I'm not sure which happened first, his hearing live musicians or his encountering an eccentric jazz fan who fell in love with Django's playing and let him stay at his apartment listening to jazz records (I forget the guys name)...I think that's when Django discovered Louis Armstrong, at least.

Stephane discovered jazz because he pressed the wrong button on the jukebox next door to the theatre where he played as part of the orchestra. I think the song was tea for two.

As I said before, many of Django's early compositions barely survived because of the commercial nature of recording (they usually only recorded songs that were already popular). We only get to hear originals once the QHCF is already starting to get popular themselves, so it's hard to say how much influence Grappelli had. One thing is for sure, though...Django was always at his most creative when he was inspired by other great musicians. His style changes big time after WWII mainly for two reasons... all the developments in American jazz that they didn't get to hear in occupied France suddenly became available. Also, the improvement of electric technology.

Coming out of WWII Django's style was considered antiquated by many. But he learned fast!

If you want to get an idea fo what some of Django's early stuff sounded like, try finding a book/CD combo called "Django Inedits" which has versions of Choti, Mtne. Ste. Genevieve, Gagoug, Chez Jacquet, and Djalomichto as played by Matelot Ferret. I'm not certain that all of these tunes are Django's compositions, but they're all great.

Cheers,

Kevin

Teddy Dupont · April 2005

TedGottsegen wrote:

There was a record found containing a tuned called "Valse Manouche" (there have been other titles associated with this as well), recorded as a guitar/piano duet that was recorded I believe around 1934. For a while the guitarist was thought to have been Baro, but I believe all the intelligencia agree that it's Django with his sister Sara Tsanga on piano,...

I would never claim to be part of any ""intelligencia" but I am not convinced this is Django. When I first heard it some years ago, I thought it was more likely to be Django than anyong else. But everytime I have listened to it since, I have become less sure for many reasons, including it's provenance. If it is not Django then the only person I can think of who could play like that is Baro. It will be interesting to see what Daniel Nevers has to say on Integrale 20.

joef wrote:

Is there a definitive (i.e. accurate )list anywhere of which of the QHCF numbers were written by Reinhardt/Grappelli together, and which were by Django alone?

Anything composed after 1939 will just have Django's name on the credits but I think Django composed 99.9% of them all. After they separated, Steph composed the odd catchy tune but nothing of any real interest. Surely not a coincedence?

scot · May 2005

TedGottsegen wrote:
There was a record found containing a tune called "Valse Manouche" (there have been other titles associated with this as well), recorded as a guitar/piano duet that was recorded I believe around 1934. For a while the guitarist was thought to have been Baro, but I believe all the intelligencia agree that it's Django with his sister Sara Tsanga on piano,...

Roger wrote:
I would never claim to be part of any ""intelligencia" but I am not convinced this is Django. When I first heard it some years ago, I thought it was more likely to be Django than anyong else. But everytime I have listened to it since, I have become less sure for many reasons, including it's provenance. If it is not Django then the only person I can think of who could play like that is Baro. It will be interesting to see what Daniel Nevers has to say on Integrale 20.

I don't think it's Django either. The chromatic notes are fingered and not glissed a la Django. The RH and the tone of this sound a lot more to me like Baro than Django c1934. To me there are a lot more good reasons to see this as Baro than as Django - basically it simply doesn't sound like Django. I have a photograph of an original acetate and it does not have Django's name on it.

The waltz' recorded in the 1950/60's, released on Vogue by Matelo Ferret ("Gagoug", "Montagne Ste. Genevieve", "Choti", "Chez Jacquet", "Djalamichto", "Tchoucar Wago", "En Verdine" and "Tchpile Tchavo") were supposedly written by Django, but there really isn't much evidence to support this.

On the original EP, "Chpile T'chavo" (Jack of All Trades) and "Tchoukar Wago" are attributed to "Alferay" which is certainly a jeu de mot by Matelot on his own name. For whatever reason I don't know, maybe it was a name used to publish with for people who were not members of SACEM. I think Matelot wrote these tunes. Matelot was known to play with words, in "L'argot de Musiciens" many bits of musician's slang are credited to Matelot. "Djalamichto" and "En Verdine" were published by Carrousel Music and credited to Django - and I think he wrote these two tunes, along with "Chez Jacquet" and "Mte Ste-Genevieve". What is odd about all of this is that two of Matelot's pieces, "Souline" and "Tchoukar Valsarie" were published by Caramel Music, typeset with the same face, at about the same time and at the same address in Neuilly. Today it's just a big apartment building. It would be interesting to know exactly who was "Caramel/Carrousel".

All this publishing took place around 1960, which was when Warners/Chappell published "Mt.Ste Genevieve, "Chez Jacquet" and "Choti". I wonder what was going on in the courts right about then?

I don't think Django wrote "Choti" or "Gagoug", either. If you listen to his other solo pieces, you can't make a thread to connect them. And if you listen to Matelot's 1960 version of this tune and then to the 1978 version, or the live version from 1973, they are all basically the same, except on the '78 version he plays it a lot better. There wasn't any kind of folk process at work - Matelot only played these pieces one particular way. Francis Moerman asked Matelot about this many times, but he never got a straight answer.

Anything composed after 1939 will just have Django's name on the credits but I think Django composed 99.9% of them all. After they separated, Steph composed the odd catchy tune but nothing of any real interest. Surely not a coincedence?

Agreed, except for "Melodie au Crepuscule" of course....

Cheers
Scot

MichaelHorowitz · May 2005

I transcribed Vasle Manouche/Choti and play it note for note. I wasn't sure if it was Django before I transcribed it. The one thing that did stand out was the absolutely perfect execution of some fairly difficult passages. While I have great respect for Baro, I've never heard him play with such precision.

After transcribing the piece and learning to play it I'm 90% sure it's Django. First off, every thing on that recording can be played with two fingers. He even avoided some conventional voicings in favor of two finger friendly ones. Additionally, so many of the phrases and arpeggios are the exact same ones I've run across over and over again when transcribing Django. Of course, other players, including Baro, used similar phrases, but the degree of similarity is such that I find it hard to believe it wasn't Django. To me, the piece is clearly constructed from the musical building blocks that Django was comfortable with.

With that said, I still could be wrong. But I'm pretty sure it was Django.

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