OT: Italy to fingerprint gypsies

TimmyHawken

I heard about this story on NPR today, it's absolutely horrible. Heres a link to a news article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7500605.stm

The jist of it is that the Roma are being portrayed as villains in the Italian media, including one media station thats apparently owned by the Italian prime minister, and now the Italian government plans to single out the Roma by race and fingerprint them so that they can easily identify them.

In the US we have recently seen some of our civil rights reduced in the name of "homeland security" but this is outright racism, utterly blatant. It is a sad time to see open fascism in Italy again.

I wonder if any of our Italian djangobooks members can give us a closer point of view on this story?

Jack

There was a thread about it a few weeks ago, but apparently it got way out of hand and was deleted...I only saw the first few responses, so I can't say exactly what was brought up later...Michael mentions why it was deleted here.

best,
Jack.

TimmyHawken

oh, I only just learned of it. Anyways, it is understandable for Michael to not want this discussed on this forum, I usually stay away political conversations myself, but I thought this is about Gypsies, so it's somewhat relevant, and it seems to be pretty outrageous.

So maybe it's best to not respond to this one. Sorry.

Klezmorim

No, I MUST respond.

I'm putting my neck on the chopping block here, but... I believe the decision to delete the earlier thread on this topic was ill-advised. As humans first and as interested musicians second, we MUST speak up and draw attention to injustice.

When I was a young child I was taken by my family on a "tour" of the former death camp at Flossenberg, not too many years after it was "decommissioned" (forgive me, even this euphemism sickens me). Needless to say, it made an impression on me, so please understand if I'm "emotionally invested" in this topic.

I'm going to limit my "preachiness" to the following quotes. If the "forum admin" decides to delete them, so be it. The comments will live on in cyberspace. Trust me on this. If all we are going to discuss are the "non-controversial" topics, then we are a shallow group.

"'Ghetto' was originally used to refer to the... Ghetto in... Italy where Jews were forced to live."

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
"And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
"And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
"And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." - Martin Niemöller

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

"We must never forget."

-'k'

emicad

this is a hot topic, so please avoid flames, otherwise it will be closed again.
personally, i'm not in favour of this proposal and i don't thint it could be a solution at the integration problems we have here with the rom people.
theorically, the proposal was born to avoid child exploitation and begging, tracking down kids and/or parents through fingerprinting. pratically, it sounds like a racial discrimination, aimed at identifying the rom as an "enemy", a "criminal", someone to be afraid of.
imho, at the moment we have other problems to solve.

clausci

yeah this is really an hot topic, like emicad said we have other (hard) problems in Italy.
The sad truth is that we have done a nice "change" with the rumenian government : 22.000 italian companies in Romania ( financied with the european founds and so with our money)and 220.000 rumenians (rom and gypsies in big part) here.
The rom people are discriminated also in Romania, i dont think the Italian government really do this thing of the fingerprints, or maybe i hope so cause it would be a really non-sense thing, just for take a bit more of our money, and less of our justice.
This things are done for putting light on other problems, others than the government corruction and the problems with justice of our politicians.

clausci

Sorry, i was wrong. The law is passed and today in Rome the census has started. From what I've understood, they dont take fingerprints to children in Rome: they take the name and fingerprints to adults and families and the names to children, they give to the adults a sort of document and the sanitary card.
Practically the try to give an identity to the gypsies. (Like Italian people),and try to control them trough photos if they are recidive criminals. I suspect that Europe has taken similar measures before of us.

Anyway because of the matters that i have explained in the previous post (that concern a part of the romani presence in Italy), I avoid to say my personal opinion with this measures, cause there is nothing to say in this situation ...its pretty clear.

Klezmorim

I'll tone my comments down in the hope that the Moderator will allow this topic to remain. That the law passed is a sad commentary on many levels. It would seem that "some" have failed to learn from the past and we know what THAT means.

I also like to think we have "advanced" in this modern era. It appears I am in error on that point.

Sorry if my earlier comment is considered "hot." No flames intended or implied.

Nimzo2005

I'd like to say some things. First, I do not agree with minister Maroni but it is true that a lot of gypsies, here in Italy, steal to live (I know what I say because I have spent 10 years as police officer). Second, fascism is far from being back. Third, people who invented something called "extraordinary rendition" should not give lessons in democracy to anyone. After my post this thread will be deleted, I know. But I got tired of listening to lessons coming from people who are not very famous for respecting human rights (camp X-rays at Guantanamo Bay, all the support given to Pinochet, extraordinary renditions, just to name a few). Sorry for the flames, probably I'll be banned, but a nation who elected George W. Bush as president cannot give lessons to anyone.

TimmyHawken

I was wondering if anyone in Italy could shed some light as to how it got like this? What is the reason for the Rom (Rom/Roma/gypsies?...I'm not sure what is the proper way to refer to them is) to be singled out? are there specific incidents that happened? or is this just politicians using them as a scape goat for Italy's problems?

Nimzo2005

The problem is that a lot of them steal to live, mainly using children. This is not racism it's the sad truth. I have spent 10 years in the police and I know what I'm saying. The number of thefts raise dramatically as you get closer to gypsy camps. This is something that anyone in Italy knows. I'm sure that in the Lonely Planet guide you can find something about gypsies, warnings about staying far from them in the metro or something like that. It's also sad that a lot of people talk about Italy without knowing the problem.