gypsy picking

Markos

Try gripping the pick as if you were grabbing a little kid by the ear, or pinching some one kindly on the cheek. It should feel very natural.

Passacaglia

Michael Horowitz wrote:

dennis wrote:

based strictly on guys like Bireli, Angelo, Jimmy, Stochelo, Django, etc... the thumb looks a bit double jointed as if they were sort of pushing the tip against the pick... in fact whenever they play the thumb always remains in that same position( ie no motion in the thumb joint)....

Yes...often the thumb does look double jointed. Sort of curling back up. Actually, I think Nous'che Rosenberg does this more then anyone. I'd have to see a pic, but I think he also grips on, or very close to the thumb joint. So there's a lot of thumb hanging over the edge of the pick.

Here's a pic:





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This is an old thread, but I'm everything Nous'che these days. I'm comfortable with my right hand relaxed, it looks like a very mild tucked-in position. And I'm relatively comfortable with the tone I'm progressing towards.
It's very difficult for me to describe these things, but I'll try:

Observing and listening to as much as I can from Nous'che, he does seem to hold this angle (from the pic) pretty much throughout, from what I can see...in fact, it seems to me his index is almost tucked in, and if, as I see them, whereas some people have their ring and pinkies somewhat "out", the only thing I see "out" with Nous'che, typically, is his middle finger.

I almost wonder whether Nous'che tucks his index in, pick resting on other side on his thumb joint, and the index is "kept in place" by his middle finger - whenever I look, the only finger "protruding" at all is this middle.

It feels weird, emulating his position; but I admit there's a kind of flat, sideways attack, almost like the power of his whole hand and forearm, and a dryness to the attack, I can begin to feel.

This is all really hard for me to describe. But for those who've spent time with him - can you tell me, is this somewhat accurate - if any finger is "tucked," it's his index, and his middle is loose, out, and maybe acts as a kind of "fixed" surface for his index to rest upon?

Secondly - Watching him in many different tunes, and many different tempos, he does seem to have all kind of "flavors" in terms of wrist and forearm motion. One thing I'm really intrigued by would be two, main means he seems to get his light, very light and dry beats 1 and 3; sometimes, it seems he's almost springing off the strings, and there's very little discernible "break" between the up and down strokes. Here, for instance, on Christian's upcoming series...(about 1:40)

Other times, he does have a definite up/down with what seems to me more wrist, less of a single-wave "swoosh" and springy "bounce" into prep for 2 and 4. [ur= for instance, the Dinette clip, backstage (0:30 on)[/url]. It's exquisitely light, swinging.

This bounce thing, this almost-sounding downstroke only, accomplished with an upstroke style ....what I imagine Michael describes as "swoosh" in the "Dutch" style, and Denis emphasizes, when talking about "bounce" - anyone work with this quite a bit?

Bones

Hi Paul,

From my experience I need to keep my index finger pretty tucked in (and the nail trimmed really short) or else I can catch the end of the nail on the strings. If I get lazy and let it curl back out I get reminded really fast and in a painful way (not to mention the pick can go flying).

The other fingers need to be tucked in for the same reason but not as much since they are further away from the strings. I think pretty much everyone plays this way for rhythm or chords. I believe even Jimmy who plays lead with his fingers fully splayed out curls them under for chords. See below for an example of Jimmy playing some rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtn2RYuTDT8

Also, note that the top of the nails and some of the skin on the fingers will brush on the strings. My index finger is worn kind of flat from brushing the strings.

As far as the thumb, I think that the knuckle needs to be straight to get power. Lead or rhythm with the knuckle on the thumb bent seems like it would be really weak.

By the way, check out Robin's unorthodox lead picking. Not textbook gypsy picking but sounds good none the less.

Passacaglia

Bones wrote:

Hi Paul,

From my experience I need to keep my index finger pretty tucked in (and the nail trimmed really short) or else I can catch the end of the nail on the strings. If I get lazy and let it curl back out I get reminded really fast and in a painful way (not to mention the pick can go flying).

The other fingers need to be tucked in for the same reason but not as much since they are further away from the strings. I think pretty much everyone plays this way for rhythm or chords. I believe even Jimmy who plays lead with his fingers fully splayed out curls them under for chords. See below for an example of Jimmy playing some rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtn2RYuTDT8

Also, note that the top of the nails and some of the skin on the fingers will brush on the strings. My index finger is worn kind of flat from brushing the strings.

As far as the thumb, I think that the knuckle needs to be straight to get power. Lead or rhythm with the knuckle on the thumb bent seems like it would be really weak.

By the way, check out Robin's unorthodox lead picking. Not textbook gypsy picking but sounds good none the less.

Thanks, Bones. Same issue, different finger - it's my thumb that often catches on the nail, and my pick does an amazing high-degree of difficulty dive.

I'm actually talking about the nitty-gritty of the finger curl, how much, which fingers. Hono is very regular, and I would almost call his curl "tight," from what I've studied. If you look at his right hand, I'd say, every finger is in a plane, none more curled than the others, a very solid and square right hand. Many players I've seen, it's the ring finger that's a bit looser, a bit "out of plane" with the rest of the fingers of the right hand.

What I'm curious about, is specifically the degree of Nous'che's index-tuck, and how his middle finger is "out," almost as if it acts as a kind of platform for what seems to me a pretty extensively curled index. I also know that doing things this way, it forces me to attack very much from the side face of my right hand, and not in line with fingers....very hard to say what I want to say in words, have to get our camera out and try to shoot a couple pics.

Jazzaferri

For me I have some finger curl. Probably from playing classic style my hand is most relaxed with the fingertips just skimming overtop the strings.

If fingers straight out is 0 degrees and the fingertip pointing straight down is 90 degrees Nousche is maybe 120 degrees and I would be about 75 degrees.

How the thumb holds the pick is, I Believe influenced by the distance between the thumb knuckle joint and the index finger knuckle joint. We are all built a little differently.

Passacaglia

Jazzaferri wrote:

For me I have some finger curl. Probably from playing classic style my hand is most relaxed with the fingertips just skimming overtop the strings.

If fingers straight out is 0 degrees and the fingertip pointing straight down is 90 degrees Nousche is maybe 120 degrees and I would be about 75 degrees.

How the thumb holds the pick is, I Believe influenced by the distance between the thumb knuckle joint and the index finger knuckle joint. We are all built a little differently.

Hey Jay - the thing I'm interested in isn't so much how all the fingers curl together - mine are about even - but this image of Nous'che above, and all the vids and photos I've seen of him elsewhere, with what looks like a pretty extreme position - or I should say, entirely natural position, because clearly it, uh, works for Nous'che.

The pick so far back as to be over the thumb joint. with the index curled noticeably in farther than all the other fingers; and his middle finger a bit out of the plane of the rest of his fingers. Feels weird to me, because I've grown accustomed to how I do it; but I do wonder whether this precise placement of his pick, and fingers, aids, in a very technical way, his sound.

klaatu

For what it's worth, my feeling is that how much curl you do (or don't) have in your fingers is less important than that you do play with your hand floating above the guitar's top and not anchored in any way, with an arch to the wrist that enables your pick to move in the proper direction (more towards the top than parallel to it). Different players find different finger alignments to work for them, from Jimmy's totally splayed fingers to Tchavolo's near fist. Find what works best for you and don't worry about imitating others. I find that my fingers shift depending on what I'm playing, sometimes loose and brushing the top, sometimes curled up more.

Passacaglia

Thanks, Ben.

don't worry about imitating others

I do hear you. That said, this is ALWAYS the rub, for me. How much is this just idiosyncratic to Nous'che (or Denis, or Hono, or....), and how much is the particular way they play - the physical approach, what we're discussing - impact on the playing?

Do you know what I mean? It's such a central question, for me...we begin, one way or another, by imitation; and end up with some amalgam of our teachers' way(s), and our way. By trying to physically imitate Nous'che's position, I do sniff a kind of feel on the strings that differs with my right hand in other positions....and I feel a more "sideways" or "perpendicular" attack, then with my hand in other shapes...so it's very hard for me, anyway - and always has been - to know what constitutes legitimate emulation, and obstructive, slavish and empty form.

Bones

BTW, check out Django's fingers on his picking hand in some of the pictures.

Here's a pretty good one.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/music/images/ar ... 4920a4.jpg

Passacaglia

Bones wrote:

BTW, check out Django's fingers on his picking hand in some of the pictures.

Here's a pretty good one.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/music/images/ar ... 4920a4.jpg

Thanks, Bones. I've got this in the wrong sub-forum....the picking hand for lead isn't my interest, really, though I actually try to keep it consistent between the two roles....figuring it's easier to keep my hand entirely free of the board, now, than unlearn it later. Not that I think it makes a difference, really - Stochelo being a great example. Just something else to obsess on....

My wife actually got several pictures of Le Maitre and framed them in series. I'm looking at them now. One of them is that photo in NY, where he looks like a kid in a candyshop. Priceless.