Spontaneous Imrov vs. Playing Lines/Phrases

a

Is there room for "spontaneous" Improvisation in Gypsy Jazz? If so, how is it prepared?

Duozona

Hi Alex

This could become a great thread, look forward to seeing where it goes.

First thing that comes to mind for me is Boulou and Elios Ferre. To my ear, they are clearly improvising with only a sketch of what is to come. Sure, their heads are tight and worked out, but what happens in between to me is true improvisation. When I had the great pleasure of hearing them a number of years ago at DFNW, it drastically altered the path I chose to take with improvisation.

It has taken me a while to get comfortable and trustworthy of my instincts, and there have been more than a few moments of 'blank' along the way, but I get closer all the time to living in the moment.

Coming form a classical-training background and career, my move towards jazz has been rather unorthodox at best. I listen constantly, absorbing all the sounds I can, but have yet to actually sit down and learn another's solo note for note. My perspective is this, I have spent the last 20 years playing compositions note-for-note, with a clear plan of what was to happen, from notes and rhythms, to dynamics, articulations, timbre etc..so jazz improv for me has been an escape, or rebellion if you will. I simply have no interest in anything but true spontaneous improv.

Now, does that mean I am free from lines, licks, and cliches? Absolutely not, in fact I struggle to avoid them, but since I have "listened" to so many of them, they are part of my language.

The trick or me has been security. Knowing that I will say something unique each time, however good or bad, and knowing that it is 'in the moment' and not be be found again, has slowly allowed me to gain comfort in my own skin and freely improvise. I've had comments form people along the lines of "I guess that's really jazz" and "Django meets Monk", and though they may have been referring to me being a bit out there and not necessarily been a direct compliment, I sure took it that way as I see it as mission accomplished.

So to the question of how to practice it, for me its having a great band that loves to practice for hours and hours and allows the freedom to just happen. We practice more then we pay out right now, and the freedom and comfort we have at home has slowly made its way onto the stage, being a little less 'careful' each time and allowing things to just happen.

Is this along the lines of what you were thinking Alex? Where are you with free improv? Whats your approach?

-Chuck

a

I like noise and free improv as well, but I really like when everyone in the band is competing for dominance in the music..by somehow playing the tune, but not - or stretching what's happening, but still have it happening, to an extent that everyone has to stay super focused or it will crash. No matter what happens, it still has to be good, or work.

In GJ, it seems to me that most of the time the comp guitar is master and the soloist is slave (unless he/she is really good).

---

What, specifically, do you do?

What are you doing like Monk?

Thanks,
A

Duozona

Alex

You bring up great ideas, especially the ensemble ideal, where each payer is dialogue, talking with one another, and even talking over one another. I think it begs the question, at what point does the swing style, or gypsy swing even, become something else, or when does it lose it's identity.

I know what you mean about pushing the boundaries, almost out of control or crashing. I think most of the style does have that recognizable 'pompe', keeping it from being really free jazz. Maybe its a blend of the two that would push new boundaries but still identify as gypsy jazz.

I remember finding it strange if not rude when folks were walking out of the Ferre Bros. concert at DFNEW that I mentioned in the first post. I think for some, it was to free, not what they came for or expected. To me and many others it was a refreshing and inspiring tour de force of spontaneity, not confined at all.

In regards to the Monk comment, I think it was nothing more than someone noticing I enjoy dissonance more than many in this style. Great musicians in this style that inspire me are Bireli L., Stephane W., and Robin N. I hear a lot of rhythmic freedom in their improvisation and they seem to enjoy melodic tension, or dissonance, more than many. I thin players like these guys play more freely because of a wider listening palette on their part, I hear more exotic vocabularies in their playing.

I think this wider vocabulary is what is working so well for guys like Adrien M. and Sebastien G.

As for what things I try and do. I love working out angular motives, seeing where they can lead to if the ideas are flowing. I love working out polyrythmic ideas, really stretching the syncopation, and then coming back inside the groove. Rhythmic sequences on dissonant melodic motives can be a nice way of balancing freedom with more cliché gestures.

"Thelonious Monk Plays Duke Ellington" is a good example of what I really like in jazz, and what I strive for in my own improvisation. To modern ears it shouldn't sound too dissonant, but at the time it sure sounded 'outside' to most.

Can you think of any good examples of free jazz still identifiable as gypsy jazz? Ferre Bros CD's would be my first instinct, but Im not sure the whole band is ever competing for dominance, I sense more of a mutually supportive approach, drawing inspiration from one another but taking turns leading.

-Chuck

a

no, but there is a quote in which, way-post Django's death, Stephane Grapelli said that there were times when they ended up playing something that sounded a lot like free jazz.


also, some of django's stuff is way more "dissonant," or deep deep deep in the harmony, than any of what's going on (in GJ, except some of what bireli does [but he's just fucking around most of the time {not meant as a bad thing}]) now.

Shawn

a,

I think you and me would get along quite sportingly. It absolutely drives me nuts that a certain element of people who listen to and/or play in the GJ genre can't seem to step out of certain confines. I play most all of my music on a Selmer style guitar, but I would never say I play in the GJ style in particular. In fact, when playing during a jam or at a gig I play more Avante Garde Jazz in the style of Ornette Coleman or Roland Kirk. Sure, I combine elements of the GJ style in my playing, but I don't see the use in limiting myself to those cliches just because I play on a Selmer guitar.

Viva la Free Jazz!

djangology

It absolutely drives me nuts that a certain element of people who listen to and/or play in the GJ genre can't seem to step out of certain confines.

When gypsy jazz players come together, they share a common repoirtoire and style. They should stick to that. When you walk away from a gypsy jazz jam and do your own thing then THAT is the time to step out of your confines. It is annoying to me when people come into a jam and try to get everyone else to change with them. You need to remember that gypsy jazz is a facilitor in that it brings people together for the simple reason that it is gypsy jazz. If it was anything else then it wouldn't bring people together. When you go to a Djangofest you should play Django tunes and immerse yourself in all-things-Django and then when you get home you should step out and make it whatever you want. That way nobody else has to endure your boundary exploration when all they wanted was a Django jam. This gives each one of us at least 350+ days a year to be experimental and explore.

a

yes, but what does it mean to be in a jam in the first place? paying hommage to django?

djangology

it just so happens that jam sessions that focus on one particular style of music are generally more successful than fusion jam sessions. actually I might go so far as to say that fusion jam sessions are complete failures, professionals aside. and so yes, i think "hommage to Django" is a good basis for a jam session...

BluesBop Harry

About jams:
To me a jam should be like a conversation, the song is the topic. Each player comments on what they hear inside the song and bring their own ideas to the table.

As far as repertoire for jams I think Djangology is right about the need of well know tunes that all or most of the jammers know, that doesn't mean one or two less usual tunes can't be learned on the spot and played as well but it sure would be hard to play "A love supreme" on a Djangofest jam!
But what you play on a Django tune doesn't necessarily have to be all about Django, it's jazz!


About tradition:
I wouldn't want to hear all atonal impros and so called "free" stuff on "Coquette" either but always playing Django stuff... I don't know... I rather hear your impressions of Django's spirit, his style through your soul, just like he did with Louis Armstrong and American jazz.

We shouldn't ever forget this is Django's music, he created it but it's not the 1930's anymore, Coltrane was here, Monk too, Bireli...
Look at what the french players like the Ensemble Zaiti and Sebastien Giniaux are doing, they pay hommage to the man, they play his songs and know the vocabulary he created, they respect tradition but they are not just repeating his lines like parrots, they are not trying to recreate an era that's already gone and they bring new songs and ideas to the genre.

If we always play Django's solos and lines verbatim and never step outside his shadow, we'll run the risk of turning this music into a stiff archeological study instead of a living art.

I guess it's all about balance... The boundaries can and should be stretched but without losing the essence of this genre.


As far as improvisation goes:

I like what the great Joe Pass once said "Improvisation is nothing more than spontaneous reorganization".

I think it's fairly obvious that the "enchaining licks" style is far more common in Gypsy jazz but more spontaneous improvisation can also be done and has been done, Bireli is a master of that, always taking risks and trying new things.

It all depends on where you draw the line and how you define improvisation, you would be hard pressed to find a jazz player that didn't used clichès and patterns of some sort, it's the vocabulary that makes a style sound the way it does, isn't it?

Sometimes it seems to me that it's just that some players invent more on-the-spot stuff to play in between patterns than others, nobody or only very few are really creating out of thin air.

Arpeggios, scales, chords, progressions, the chromatic scale, the very notes we use! they are all pre-established... "freedom has it's limits"

Duozona

All points are valid....original post was 'is there room for spontaneous improv in gyspy jazz', and where we have arrived so far is that obvious challenge in blending the two.

I think in the context of gypsy jazz, a jam session, familiar rep, there can still be plenty of room for varying solo styles.

Listen to Sylvain Luc and Angelo Debarre back to back, they sound nothing like one another but could easily find common ground to improvise on.

As Alex mentioned, it really depends how good the soloist is whether they can pull it off and still stay in the jam. I find it refreshing when someone sounds totally different and am not in the least bit bothered by a different approach.

We can probably better discuss this by defining more clearly a few things:

what is fusion to everyone? Is it a style or a blending of styles?

What defines gypsy jazz, the instruments, the rep, the language of the improvisers, even their 'accents', or all of the above.

Ensemble Zaiti is great example, and a good reference as I think we can all agree they are excellent and a good example of what we are discussing. Are they gypsy jazz because of their rep (which is wide and varied form what I've heard), because of the guitars they play or how they play them (I've seen them on different types of instruments playing with different approaches), or are they a perfect 'fusion' group (depending n the definition)? Something tells me these cats would be perfectly at home in a 'free jazz' setting.

In my neck of the woods, I have struggled with the label "gypsy jazz", often misleading and almost never fully representing what my group does. I had one local jazz promoter come to a concert of ours where we played some Django, some bebop, some Piazzolla even, and a few slow ballads. Afterwards, she sent a very complimentary email, but did ask the question, is it all the same fast beat? Of course we thought, "huh?" as we played tango, milonga, bossa (brazilian style), rumba, and slow slow ballads, but it was those fast pompes that stuck in her head. I wondered if the whole Django thing closed her ears to what else we did.

Anyone else encounter this with more mainstream jazzers, the whole label thing?

I knew this topic could go somewhere.

-Chuck