First post, lots of questions

Bryan T

All,

Thanks for lots of interesting input. I'm the sort of musician that will learn theory to know how to get the sound that I want, but then once it is internalized I don't consciously think about it when playing. This has worked well for playing other genres. The discussion of which minor scales Django chose was very informative for me and I'm glad to see that I'm hearing things the way others are.

I would like to learn more about how Django used the bebop scale. I'm assuming that he would actually emphasize all notes from this scale, rather than just using some of the more "out" notes as passing tones.

The comment about playing with other GJ players is duly noted and I'm on the look-out for any GJ jams near where I live, though I do want to learn more standards before getting involved.

By the way, if anyone has a good suggestion for a book/DVD that focuses on rhythm playing, I'm all ears. I have a DVD from Michael Dunn that teaches a lot of the core rhythms, but I'd like a bit more. The intro bock from Jorgenson did a good job of the basics of rhythm playing as well. What else is out there?

Thanks,
Bryan

BluesBop Harry

Hi everyone!
Yeah I was also thinking of the 1949 Minor swing´s solo, but not only the pickup, also on bar 9 he plays a C# against a D-6 chord thus implying melodic minor, I know it´s brief but it´s there, in fact any time the major seventh is played against a -6 chord implies the use of melodic minor, unless the minor sixth is present. I´m not excluding the Dorian mode i´m just saying that melodic minor is also an option, and even though Django didnt use it´s modes at all and he surely didn´t use the scale nearly as much as the bebop guys, I believe he was familiar with it, especially on the later years.
On the other issue, I still believe that studying Django´s style will lead to a better understanding of Gypsy Jazz, simply because he practically invented it. This does not mean that you have to become a Django clone ( would be very hard anyway) just that it would be helpful for you as a newcomer to this music to learn where it all comes from, in fact I would go all the way back to finding about his influences (Armstrong, traditional french and gypsy music, french classical impresionists, etc.) and studying those as well.
Of course all of this is just my opinion and only reflects how i´m going about learning to play this style, hoping it will help you too, it´s just my two cents.
By the way music theory is just a tool (very useful) to understanding how music works, it won´t make music by itself and it´s not indispensable, but when used right it will only make you a better musician, again just my opinion.
Good luck!
-Harry

Jack

Bryan T wrote:

By the way, if anyone has a good suggestion for a book/DVD that focuses on rhythm playing, I'm all ears. I have a DVD from Michael Dunn that teaches a lot of the core rhythms, but I'd like a bit more. The intro bock from Jorgenson did a good job of the basics of rhythm playing as well. What else is out there?

Thanks,
Bryan

Bryan,

One thing I'd suggest is not to take the Dunn video as gospel; I mentioned this on another site, and Michael (Dunn) wrote in himself to agree, saying that he learned all his stuff on his own, before there was any real access to all the 'authentic' gypsy tuition we have today. I think Michael does a great job of cataloguing some of the different rhythms, but his playing isn't neccessarily what you want to emulate. For me, the best of what's out there right now has been the Astuces series from Angelo Debarre & Samy Daussat: http://tinyurl.com/dapzg
Our host Michael also has some helpful downloadable lessons available right here: http://tinyurl.com/cltd7

And once his Gypsy Rhythm book comes out, I've little doubt that will be the new standard; keep an eye out! Beyond that, though, I think the very best way to learn it is to play along with what you like-as long as you've got the right chord forms, etc. Locking in with your favorite records is a real learning experience, and a real joy.

Best,
Jack.

kimmo

Michael Horowitz wrote:

That's a good example of Django using the melodic minor. It seems that if he was already hip to the Dorian and the Harmonic minor scales it wouldn't be too hard for him to change one note and end up playing melodic minor.

However, I still don't really consider it that important in his playing.

Nor do I, as I intended to express in my post: it's not frequent or important, but it was yet another incredient he was aware of and could use it if it seemed a good tool for the task. It clearly didn't very often.

Michael Horowitz wrote:

Or even hipper play the 2nd mode...so Eb melodic minor over D7. I've never heard Django do that....

What is Django doing in the last phrase of the head in Django's Tiger in your opinion?



To me it looks like f-melodic minor over E7 - or a related bop-cliche Fm6/9-arpeggio (with added maj7 in this case) over E7. What do you think?

dennis

hi kimmo

that transcription looks familiar ;-) .. anyway he's just thinking Bb7 (tritone sub) over that last passage, the dutch sinti love to do a variation of that lick btw.

Bryan T

Jack wrote:

I think Michael does a great job of cataloguing some of the different rhythms, but his playing isn't neccessarily what you want to emulate. For me, the best of what's out there right now has been the Astuces series from Angelo Debarre & Samy Daussat: http://tinyurl.com/dapzg
Our host Michael also has some helpful downloadable lessons available right here: http://tinyurl.com/cltd7

That is exactly what I took from the Michael Dunn DVD. I've seen/listened to enough GJ players to know that his playing style is abnormal, though his catalog of rhythms sounds correct.

I'll check out those other sources you mention and anticipate the "Gypsy Rhythm" book.

By the way, I picked up a few more books yesterday. One is Stephane Wrembel's book "Getting to GJ Guitar." It seems to be a good source for harmonic ideas as they relate to GJ music, moreso than any of the other books I have purchased. I also bought the transcriptions of the solos from "Sweet and Lowdown" to play around with.

Thanks for your input,
Bryan

MichaelHorowitz

kimmo wrote:

What is Django doing in the last phrase of the head in Django's Tiger in your opinion?



To me it looks like f-melodic minor over E7 - or a related bop-cliche Fm6/9-arpeggio (with added maj7 in this case) over E7. What do you think?

That's probably the closest thing I've seen to Django using a mode of the melodic minor. The notes are there...but to me it doesn't sound all that melodic minor. I think it's because the Ab ( enharmonic of G#) only occurs once in the the first triplet. It sounds to me like he wanted to get some of the tensions that you'd get with a melodic minor, but he wasn't really using it in a totally systematic way.

Find 10 more examples like that and I'll be convinced that Django was totally hip to the melodic minor scale!

Thanks,

'm

Jack

Bryan T wrote:

I'll check out those other sources you mention and anticipate the "Gypsy Rhythm" book.

One other thing I forgot are the great (and free) tips you'll find here:
http://www.maanoucheswing.com/cours.html
Though it's a video, some french would help. Still, being able to watch someone else's motion often makes all the difference.

Enjoy,
Jack.