neck width - jorgenson model

tomcunn

i have a john jorgenson model gitane and also a very cheap gypsy guitar called an SX - i think it is Korean;

the SX is much easier to play, and it has a wider neck. is there a "standard" neck width? are the Gitanes narrower than most?

any info appreciated

gitpicker

I think the standard neck width, (at least for the 14 fret 670mm scale length selmers), is 45mm at the zero fret and 57mm at the 14th fret. Perhaps Bob Holo or somebody else here can confirm this.

BluesBop Harry

Excuse me for taking this a bit off topic.
Aside from the width, the Jorgenson is one of the only Sagas with a good neck profile, Why does Saga keep making Selmer types with stratocaster necks?

I would buy a Cigano in a second if it wasn't for the thin neck... I wrote them a letter a while back but I figure they just laughed and ignored it. Is there anyone out there who has some influence and can convince them to make their necks beefier?

bjewell

I've had nothing but great dealings with Saga. They have been great to me. I think if we keep offering our suggestions, they will listen.

FWIW, my DG-300 is a c-o-o-l guitar for blues and bottleneck.

Bob Holo

Good memory Doug, yep those are the Selmer specs.

Hey Tomcunn, welcome.

So... necks are odd buggers. Oh man, this might be a tome, but it'll answer a lot of questions I tend to get (or at least answer them to the extent of my experience with the issues, YMMV) Some people have very specific likes and others really couldn't care less. Michael Horowitz can play any neck. he just picks up the guitar and runs up & down it. People with long fingers seem to be less sensitive to neck size vagaries.

But, a lot of it is about the profile of the neck - those ubiquitous gradually rounded gypsy jazz necks with the big shoulders seem to cause a lot of hand fatigue. I guess I'd call them a "round backed D" just to describe them visually. My guess is that it's because they kind of feel like a C even though they have those shoulders - people try to grab them like a "C" but those shoulders press on the inside of the thumb joint and probably the inside of other knuckles depending on hand size. I guess the Jorgenson is a little like that, but not a lot. It's typically considered a fairly comfortable neck by a wide range of players and it's fairly 'middle of the road' in terms of size so likely they made it to please a wide swath of people. My old Busato with the 47.5mm nut width is huge if you're just talking spec - but it is pretty much a C and people seem to love that neck. On the "way other" end of the spectrum, I find the standard Selmer profile very comfortable but not all people do. It is not at all round, but I've found I sort of grab a Selmer style neck differently and I don't know how that affects things. I didn't always find it comfortable. The first straight-to-spec Selmer neck I ever tried was that antiqued 503 model **** made two or three of a few years back. It seemed so huge - but I was standing next to Elios Ferre and handed it to him saying: "Wow - that's a huge neck." He tried it and said: "Is good - I like it a lot." So maybe it's about figuring out how to grab the neck. Now I really like a true Selmer neck. But unfortunately this increased comfort has not made me sound any more like Mr. Ferret. ;-) If you've never seen a Selmer profile neck, it's kinda sorta like a mini classical neck - often called a "D" profile. Sometimes depth has a lot to do with it too. Too deep and people say: "Its too chunky - I cant make stretches and it makes my hands hurt getting around the edges of the fretboard..." ...which oddly is kind of the same thing people say about really wide thin necks. Too thin and people say: "My hand gets tired because I can never get a grip with my palm so I feel like I'm having to press too hard with my fingers" I've seen Gypsy guitars ranging from 18mm to 23mm deep at the 1st fret. Somewhere in the middle of that is probably good.

But it's really very subjective. One person's "Great!!" neck is another person's nightmare... and some people just don't give a rip. One thing I can tell you is that if you're new to these guitars - your taste in necks and likely your left hand technique will evolve significantly in the first year or so. So, if you really like a particular guitar but don't like it's neck - don't write it off just yet.

BluesBop Harry

Isn't there anyone else that bothered by the Gitane necks?
If there's more people who share my dislike for the saga necks maybe we can flood the company's inbox with emails on the issue and start seeing more wood on Saga's necks.

I use to play a Dg250 and my hands would get tired really quickly, most players I've talked to agree that they are way too thin, still playable but have, literally, room to improve.
In fact that was the main reason I sold my Gitane, if it had had a different neck I'd still be playing it.

I can play on most necks for a while, but if you play a lot you'll really appreciate the extra support the original Selmerish profiles give you, I don't necessarily mean those square 2x4, just a little more. Dupont, Hahl, and most of the rest make very comfortable modern shaped necks and Sagas would benefit from taking a cue from them.

Bob Holo

Enrique,

I agree - and tis' a worthy goal ;-) but their market for Ciganos & such might not be you. I've spent a lot of time asking people about necks and a lot of people (particularly people who are new to this music) actually like them when it gets right down to it - particularly guys coming at this from electrics & Jazz boxes. And that's who Saga wants. Appealing to the base of GJ players doesn't give them much of a market to shoot at. Their bread and butter is in cross-selling to people in the much larger markets. (Teles & Jazz Boxes & J45s etc...)

tomcunn

all interesting, and i appreciate the feedback. part of the ease of play for me on a wider neck is the right hand; i can go faster without tripping over the next string. is this bad right hand technique? or does anyone else have observations on that.

Jack

BluesBop Harry wrote:

Isn't there anyone else that bothered by the Gitane necks?

I wish I could keep up with all the different models to know...I've only played a D500, a 250, and a Jorgenson...the 500 neck I liked, the 250 was a matchstick, and the Jorgenson was somewhere in between.

I have pretty big hands, though, and never really played electrics, so others might really like the skinnier necks. But overall, I haven't really cared for the Gitane neck profiles. That said, I don't think an email campaign is going to change their tack; there's obviously a ton of folks happy with them the way they are.

best,
Jack.

B25Gib

My first GJ guitar was a SAGA gorgeous maple wood '04 250m and I liked the solo tone but didn't like the thin neck or the damped rhythm tone which may have been due to the heavy polyurethane coating. I have heard newer models with better rhythm tone.
Having only medium sized hands and thinking I liked a narrower nut width, I was very surprised to really like the 1 7/8" nut width, fairly full "D" shape neck, and short 640 mm scale length of this Very Old D-500 12 fret SAGA I recently purchased. It has a Loud, "Barky" simple "gypsy" tone and I have played it 90% of the time the last two months even though I have two other GJ guitars with better tonal quality and nuances!
I think a player's comfort with a guitar neck's dimensions evolves and is dependent upon his lead and rhythm capabilty, hand flexibility, and the guitar's scale length, nut width, neck shape and bridge height.

joechoo

I have several gypsy guitars, two cigano gitane, one oval and one D hole. The oval had a smaller neck width while the D had a neck similar to the classical in width. Over the years I bought a few Eastmans the DM1 and an arch top. But I finally settled on a handmade Craig bumgarner. I'm happy with it but at the time I was not using my thumb to fret any strings so I just asked for the most popular kind of neck and I got a wider one.

Now I've been learning different shapes that higher level musicians use that use the thumb to fret the 6th string and I find difficultly doing it. Now I'm wondering if I should get a thinner neck. I know it will cost a lot to send it back and get another neck put on. I paid $4500 for the guitar