guitar finishes

crookedpinky

I was led to believe the exact opposite, most of the luthiers I've spoken to have propogated the argument for gypsy guitars that the top is the key. They cite Andres de Torres the 19th century luthier who refined thickness and bracing of guitars as the source of this wisdom. To prove that it was the top, and not the back and sides of the guitar that gave the instrument its sound, in 1862 he built a guitar with back and sides of papier-mâché. Most of the guitars that we as gypsy jazzers crave have laminated back and sides and it would seem to be the tops that are the key to the sound we're after.

I am currently building a new top for an old french gypsy guitar - I don't know who made it but it's similar to ones listed at Guitare Villages website as "Luthier inconnu" - the top had sunk but the back and sides were fine. Although it was unplayable it was exeptionally loud and when I removed the top it became clear that the back and sides are made from what looks like laminated pine. It's not a great wood whatever it is but it is laminated. So to my mind that reinforces the notion that the back and sides aren't that important.

At the end of the day I don't suppose it matters as long as the things sound good to our ears.

Jazzaferri

Check out Bob Benedetto's DVD on how to build an archtop guitar. In that one he states his opinion that the back of an archtop is critical to getting good sound. He has also stated that at seminars and workshops he has given. Michael Dunn who builds an awesome guitar (I have two a GJ and a neoclassical) is also of the same opinion. The guy who built my reso (Rayco Resophonics) is a firm believer in that as well.

The sound created by a top alone will be very thin and quiet compared to a complete guitar. Granted the top is what translates the bridge vibrations and is a critical component.

I agree completely that in the end it's how it sounds overall that is important to us players.

TomThumbs

I would tend to think, (not knowing a darn thing about lutherie) that the shape of the back would greatly influence the sound and projection of *any* guitar. I would submit Kaman's work with parabolic bowl-backed guitars, ie: Ovations, which are not even made of wood, to boot. I also wonder if the shape of a guitar itself, is more from tradition, than science.

Tom

Jack

TomThumbs wrote:

Here you go:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/index.html

Here's a direct link to the guitar in question:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_hbmc500.htm

Cosmetically it certainly looks the same; only obvious difference I see is that the DellArte has closed tuners...

crookedpinky

Re the Harley Benton

The two Dell Arte Hommgaes played in the Glasgow Hot Club both have open tuners - identical to the ones on the Harley Benton. They're good quality Waverley units.

Alan

Jack

Interesting...mine came with closed tuners. Just out of curiosity, do you have the serial #s? The one I have is 0000024.

crookedpinky

Hi there, here's a previous post of mine re the Hommage. Have a look at www.thomann.de and search for Harley Benton Favino. There's also another post of here soemwhere which talks about the sound of the Hommage - quite dry and trebly

Good luck, Alan

crookedpinky wrote:

Hi all

just to confirm the previous post re the Thomann Harley Benton. It appears to be a Dell Arte Hommage with a different badge, I owned one for a while and compared it head to head with two Dell Arte Hommages belonging to the guys in the Hot Club of Glasgow - no difference apart from price. I paid £279 pounds - including shipping to me front door from Germany - the Dell Arte Hommage sells locally for £440 pounds, a big difference.

Also, when it arrived it was packed well inside two cardboard boxes, the inner guitar shaped one had - guess what - Dell Arte printed on the outside.I sold it recently as I have too many guitars bit still see it regularly at the Hot Club meetings where it performs well in a group setting.

One point to note is that one of the moustache ends was set at an angle and purely for cosmetic reasons I removed it and reglued it. Funnily enough I have noticed several pictures of other Dell Arte models also suffer this problem.

On a seperate note, I have stripped the finish off an aria using Nitromors paint remover and a razor blade to shave off the gunk. This removes most of the finish and then needs sanding. Following that I gave it a light coat or two of Nitrocellulose sealer, sanding between, and then a finish of beeswax. Total changed the sound and the look of a reasonably cheap guitar into something half decent.

Also, I am lucky enough to own a hand built guitar made by a retired toolmaker who has made 115 guitars to date, all different and only three gypsy models in that total. The finish on that is very very thin and almost feels as though it's not there. It's a 50/50 mixture of turpentine and boiled linseed oil, given about 15 coats and allowed to dry in between. I used this mixture to clean it up and two things to note - it's takes forever to dry and it stinks for a while - but what a lovely finish.

Good luck with everything

bpmajors

I am interested in the Gitane D-500 as an experienced jazz guitarist new to Gypsy Jazz. I have heard that this model has a laquered INSIDE. Does anyone know anything about this? Would this be a good thing? I have not ever heard of a finish on the inside of a guitar but had not really thought about it before but saw a review and this was mentioned. Wisdom appreciated! Thanks.

Elliot

ruolmo wrote:

Well,Shawn,I am happy someone made my same experience...After researching a bit it seems that those Korean/Chinese factories use this kind of finishing because it is a quick method to do away with a too long step by step finishing proccess.The horribly nasty hard stuff they seal the guitars with is thick enough to go on in one go and can be sanded flat with no worries abouth sand-thrus ,also covering wood imperfections wich would,otherwise,involve the more expensive and time consuming sanding by hand.This superchemical sealer ofcourse makes that the woods can not breathe ,as everything is truly locked-in, thus taking the all important osmosis proccess away wich ,by taking and then giving again moisture and air components ,allows the wood to stabilize (I mean also the hardening- out of the tannines found in the wood cells).As also the vibrating qualities of the woods are inhibited because of the finish,this all must be real bad for the sound of the stringed instrument.Think that on my guitar the amount of finish on the spruce top was a whooping 1/4 of the total thickness of the top!Now the top is thinner ,everything resonates nicely and thanks to the possibility given to the woods to age naturally the guitar will get better and better.
I think that everybody should have a try at what we did,even if it is a tough job (getting the stuff off),to then discover a reborn and sparkling guitar.... Sorry for my English,huh huh!!! cheers willi

No offense young dude, but you are just talking out of a different hole here. Plus, your use of 'those Korean, Chinese factories' is borderline racism.

First, nobody beats Asians for hand-eye coordination, period. It is what lifted first Japan, then South Korea, now China as part of the Pacific Rim to the greatest economic/manufacturing powerhouse from what were third world countries in a generation and a half. Millions of little hands is the economic engine that has taken over the world. However the tooling, the machinery, is another story. Try comparing a Sony with a Samsung and the name of a television you don't even know because it is made in China. Do you think there just might be a difference there? I don't hear people referring to 'those Spanish, French guitars' , do you?

"This kind of finishing" - is not anything different from any finishing any other guitar maker anywhere else has been using since it was invented, whether it is Nitro or Poly. But most important is your insistence that wood really breathes! There is no osmosis in dead cells, and the only live cells in a tree are the ones that are directly under the bark. However, you are right that some vibration is inhibited. That is what it is supposed to do; on a good guitar, that is - otherwise we'd call it a Banjo! Look at a Stradavarius and tell me why one is worth $1M while an identical one made down the street from him with the same construction only gets $50k. I wonder what the guy who stripped his down for a 'drier sound' is getting for his now?

You can take a guitar that doesn't resonate and make it a bit better removing some finish, so you are correct - I'm sure your guitar improved in sound, but I wouldn't be extrapolating from there.

Jazzaferri

FYI and to correct the record.

Unless wood is sealed both sides with either an H2O impervious layer ....which does not include any current guitar finishes..... it will absorb/give up moisture from/to the air if the relative humidity increases/decreases and stays higher/lower than the stabilized RH the instrument has become settled to for long enough for the change to take effect. The unfinished inside of the instrument breathes much more quickly than the outside finish.

If there is any interest there are tables available of how many coats of particular finishes it takes to obtain various levels of H2O vapour permeability. Relevant only on the neck which will over time absorb through the neck block.

Osmosis has nothing to do whether the wood is alive or dead. To watch osmosis cut a small block of aged dried cedar, let it float it in a pan of water for several weeks and then cut a cross section. Report back the results here :shock: