guitar finishes

Elliot

Getting something wet is absorption/diffusion. Osmosis as used in biology is travel between cell walls due to differing solute concentrations, from what I've learned. Besides, we aren't talking about protection from moisture, which would be a reason for sealing it, it is the contention that air will mystically pass through the guitar like a pair of lungs if left unsealed, and that this is what makes a guitar sound good. Nonsense.

It is a result of taking one factoid and running away with it. But I didn't post to contend what makes a good guitar - if you think the sound of a guitar which is so dry and wiry that it can't resonate a chord unless it is a 1st position Em is what the sound of Gypsy Jazz means to you, despite your cat howling for it's life, that's okay, especially if you play rhythm. You need that fast report, and other people need your money. They laminate the inside as well - funny how nobody complains about the lacquer there, isn't it?

What bothered me was mainly all the terrible things 'those so and so's' do to their guitars over there with the implied lumping of disparate Asian people of way different histories and cultures...unless you happen to be Bruno, of course, in that case they are all 'basically Chinese'... :P

In the meantime, if you are from Japan and are about to come to America, the word is first of all that over here, nothing works...!

Heretic

Elliot:

It's good to see you back in action. Your critical mind ( I mean that in the best sense) has been missed.

JazzDawg

bpmajors: Re: D-500 inside..

I have heard that this model has a laquered INSIDE.

I have a D-500 (2007 vintage), and it's bare wood, as far as I can tell. I can't tell you if it's breathing, or not, as I simply refuse to drown in it a tub of water. It sounds fine to me, though it has 'wetness' of tone on the 1st string from about the 6th to 12th fret. Still, I cannot detect any moisture. Why is that? I wonder, why it's so wet sounding, it seems dry enough.

I've been trying to absorb what folks have said about a guitars' tone opening up, and breathing, but I fear I've only been able to learn from osmosis. Maybe I'm just too old and dry, or maybe I'm just wet behind the ears. :roll:

Bohemian

I did not see any racism in "ruolmo's" post

Consider English is not his native language and, perhaps, cut him some slack.

Bones

I know from experience that bare wood absorbes moisture from the air (in a humid environment) much more than wood that has been lacquered with several (like 5 or 6) coats.

Conversely, in a dry environment, it also dries out much more.

How that affects tone I couldn't say but it definitely affects the geometry of the instrument.

Elliot

Hey Heretic

Yes it's been a while. You know I'm really just having some fun, none of my friends take me very seriously.. You're right, Bohemian...

There definitely seems to be a tendency toward a slightly drier sound in these guitars on their own as time progresses. I've noticed just over the last year what I can only describe as a more 'catholic' sound. I would think that 60 years of pliage tension and glue changes (rabbitskin collagen?) would just add to this significantly.

(sound of drowning guitar)..."If it was breathing, how come it didn't scream for help?"

Jazzaferri

Some luthiers seal the inside of the box. if I recall correctly (which at my age is an issue :shock: ) Benedetto sealed the insidde of his archtops with a coat of shellac or some such. I just phoned Michael Dunn and he does not. Shellac is over twice as effective as lacquer at sealing, Three coats of lacquer are 79% effective in excluding moisture over 1 day and 19% over 14 days. Three coats of shellac are 91% and 42% respectively. Given enough time in an identical RH environment an unfinished and finished guitar will end up with the wood having identical moisture content.

To give an idea of what luthiers have to contend with.

On the west coast of North America the moisture content of wood that is at moisture content equilibrium that is kept inside will very between 2 and 4 % over the year. Using an average of 3% per year on an Englemann Spruce top of 16" lower bout the maximum movement can be up to 1/16 " If this movement is constrained which it is by the top braces as wood barely moves lengthwise the pressure will be huge. No wonder they change the top shape a bit over the year. I still find it amazing that they don't come apart more often.

AS for the priniciple of drier wood leading to a drier sound ..... well that's a whole now area of study I will leave that to the experts.

Elliot ... not taking this all that seriously however FYI "Osmosis" is the process by which a fluid is diffused through a permeable or semi-permeable membrane from an area of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration ..... i.e. - cell wal,l Reverse Osmosis Filter Membrane etc etc. Alive, dead, natural or manmade a membrane is a membrane ...... as opposed to a meme-brain which is quite another topic altogether.

Cheers

ruolmo

Wow Elliot,you really sport that oh so american mixture of aggressiveness,putting everything in question and trying(I hope not invain) to be SOOOO cool...
I wonder why I should be a racist if I mention a production tecnique,in this case the painting proccess ,done in the far east.I did not say that Orientals are not able to do a good job.I refer to the WAY they do it.I do highly respect the oriental workers for their skills and meticolous building methods,as I do respect ANY ethnia , for what they do and primarly for what they ARE.
But I would definitely see a difference between French and Spanish guitars!I mean,a Ramirez is not really a Dupont,or not? ruolmo

Elliot

Didn't mean to come down so hard, ruolmo. I get loose with the language for effect sometimes. However, China is where Japan was 40 years ago.

Also they do prefer the term Asians nowadays, not Orientals. It is about the only thing they have in common.

ruolmo

Thank you Elliot,be peace between us.My reply was rather stupid.I am stripping my Aria MM10 grande bouche these days to free it from all that nasty two-pack paint.As it seems that the paint stripper I use (super potent type) does not even move the top layers a bit ,I will have to use a stripping knife and sandpaper,tough work lays before me.But not using paint stripper will save the bindigs,wich are of plastic on this Aria,not wood as on better guitars.I do all this as an experiment too see if stripping will improve the sound.Right now the guitar sounds a bit dull,not bad but the nice extra zzzinggg is missing.I saved the strings that were on it before preparing it for the operation,and will put them back on when things are done,so the comparison before/after will be truer,and rigorously not change any of the hardware.And I will try to be honestly impartial when judging the sound with the guitar finally painted in nitrocellulose.Ceers....