Rhythm: left hand

kyle91

When someone plays rhythm, do they mute every beat(choke every beat with beat 2 and 4 being a little shorter than beats 1 and 3) or every other beat (let beats 1 and 3 ring out and choke beats 2 and 4)? Does it relate to the tempo of the song?

I've been trying to figure this out by studying rhythm players on youtube. I still can't figure it out. It looks like they mute every other beat, but it sounds as though they mute every beat.

Here's the kind of rhythm I'm looking at:



I'm more interested in the "pompe four" style, like Matheiu Chatelain does here, but I'm also curious about what players who use the upstroke pompe do with their left hand if it differs.

And on a side note: Do Les Doigts de l'homme use the "pompe four" rhythm style as well?

JazzDawg

It's not really a 'muted' stroke, but a quick 'whipped' stroke. The left hand release quicker while the right hand crushes the strings, or whips them, but doesn't mute. Michael goes over a lot of this in his book, 'Gypsy Rhythm', and Dennis Chang does a great treatment of rhythm playing in his video, 'The Art of Accompaniment'. Both of these are highly recommended.

Also, as you're in the Portland area, there are a lot of opps to see this music 'live'. Seattle is pretty close too. My suggestion is to contact a GJ player in your area, lots around the NW, and take a few lessons, at least to clear this part up.

YouTube has some resources on the subject too, just check out 'playbacklapompe' or 'gypsy rhythm' and you get some good hits to explore. Overall, getting a 'live' resource is the way to go, barring that course, the video and book will serve you well.

Rhythm playing is the core of GJ, and there are a variety of approaches to it in this style, but all are pretty close. I don't claim to be a master at GJ rhythm, I'm on the learning curve too. Good luck!

http://philmanuel.wordpress.com/gypsyrhythm/

http://philmanuel.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/gypsy-rhythm-mnemonic/

Jazzaferri

Dennis DVD's are indeed excellent as is our erstwhile forum host's book on gypsy rhythm. Michael's book on rhythm ... I confess I have to go with my rhythm player's assessment here :shock: .... is according to him the definitive treatise on GJ rhythm

In our duet he rhythm technique my partner uses depends on the tune and the feel we want to achieve... so knowing them all is the end goal... IMO being a good GJ rhythm player is technically more demanding than solo playing :shock: Learning La Pompe is probably the first priority as the techniques form a good foundation and a really broad application. Learn to make it really dry 8) 8) 8)

Matthieu made an interesting point in a rhythm class I took a few years ago..... in that many North Americans seem to have grown up hearing a 2/4 emphasis (ta BOOM ta BOOM) and getting the 1/3 (BOOM ta BOOM ta) as the emphasis appears to be a challenge for many of his North American classes

kyle91

Thank you for your replies.

But, I'm not talking about the right hand whipping the strings on beats 2 and 4. I'm talking about how long you hold the chord down...

I have both the Denis Chang DVD and the 'Gypsy Rhythm' book, but I'm confused because on the "Gypsy Rhythm' CD it sounds as though Michael does the long, short, long, short rhythm when he plays the downstroke style. On the other hand, Denis does the short, short, short, short rhythm on the downstroke style. I like the sound of the short short short short rhythm, but it doesn't seem to work too well on faster tempos. I can't imagine someone pressing the chord on and off everybeat at 220 bpm. It seems that would be a recipe for injury... I could be wrong about that.

So, how long do you hold the chord down until you let go to mute the sound? Does it depend on the tempo of the song?

JazzDawg

The left hand release quicker while the right hand crushes the strings, or whips them, but doesn't mute.

I'm not sure how else to explain it. I think it does vary with tempo, but the choke and release is quicker on the 2nd and 4th beat, at least the way I play it. Like I said, I'm on the learning curve too, so I understand the frustration. I still say, see if you can find a GJ teacher in your area, and that would be the best way to clear it up.

periclimenes

I'd like to second Jazzaferri. The biggest revelation I have had with my rhythm playing was related to the importance of the 1 and 3 beats. As far as your question of how long to hold the chords down goes, I have found that my natural inclination was to make the 1 and 3 way too short (probably because I was already preparing to whip the 2 and 4). Since then, I have found that on a medium-fast tempo song, it's almost impossible for me to make the 1 and 3 too long (it's practically a chord sweep). In my brain it feels absurdly long but, when I listen to it, it sounds much better proportionally. As far as the 2 and 4 go, I do believe many players play those with a much more perfunctory timing. I don't know if he does this all of the time, but I have definitely seen Andreas Oberg keep the chord shape in his fingers, but lift them up so none of the notes are actually fretted for the 2 and 4. The rhythm then sounds more like chord - chk - chord - chk.

Most of all, though, everyone says it just takes practice. I think no matter what you try, or however you approach it, it takes quite a bit of time. The good news is that it is probably hard to put in the time and not get much better. I'm reminded of SCUBA diving: when I first got certified, I would go through a whole tank of air on a shallow dive (30 feet or so) in 25 minutes. I couldn't understand how my instructor could stay down for hours. He told me that it's just a matter of repetition, relaxing, and being able to better understand your body and bouyancy. It was frustrating at the time that there wasn't anything to "do" about it, other than just dive a ton (okay, not that frustrating, since the diving was fun). Now I get cold after 90 minutes and get out before I'm out of air. And my buddy that just got certified can't understand how my air lasts so much longer...

Good luck!

Jazzaferri

For reference on timing on the long strokes 1/3 I am getting the pressure off the strings as the pick gets close to the top string (bottom of stroke) on the 2 and 4 beats I start getting the left han d pressure off the strings just before the pick hits the strings ... what I am for in the 2/4 beats are like a tuned drumbeat .... i wish I had better words but thats the best i could come up with

kyle91

Jazzaferri wrote:

For reference on timing on the long strokes 1/3 I am getting the pressure off the strings as the pick gets close to the top string (bottom of stroke) on the 2 and 4 beats I start getting the left han d pressure off the strings just before the pick hits the strings ... what I am for in the 2/4 beats are like a tuned drumbeat .... i wish I had better words but thats the best i could come up with

So is that what Matheiu Chatelain is doing in the video? Wouldn't you injure your hand when playing fast tempos? It looks like he is holding down the chord on beats 1 and 3 until he chokes chord 2 and 4-- like what periclimenes said that Oberg does sometimes.

Btw, I do have an instructor. He changes his rhythm to fit each song. Sometimes he does this long short short short rhythm that he said he picked up from Fapy Lafertin's rhythm players. He said he doesn't know what players like Matheiu Chatelain do with their left hand. That's why I asked.

Jazzaferri

I find the most difficult part of this is not overdoing the left hand .... it doesn't take much pressure or much relaxation of pressure to achieve the desired effect .... just a lot of practice to get to that level of subtlety .... and yes it does mean lots and lots and lots and lots .......etc etc :shock: of pressure/relaxation cycles

Jazzaferri

An afterthought .... given the requisite amount of practice the motion becomes automatic and unconscious .... and yes at the beginning one should not overdo things otherwise a repetitive strain injury is quite possible .... particularly if one didn't start at age 10 or 12...... depending upon one's age and amount of playing time starting with 10-15 minutes a session with approporiate stretching exercises in between is not unreasonable

If one wishes to learn quickly build up to a few hours a day practice minimum .... better yet 8 - 10 hours a day.... In a year or so you'll have it down pat. Not kidding ... like flamenco it is the physically most demanding playing on the planet ... lots of the tunes that Django et al played were done at 240 - 330 bpm and they would go on for hours and hours

For reference http://www.musicianshealth.com/default.htm

the stretches are really good

Jazzaferri

A few of the 4/4 GJ rhythm patterns my buddy uses L=long S=Short M=short with a teeny bit of sustain SF=Short but with Sforzandi tyupe emphasis

S S S S

L S L S

L M L M

L M L S

M S M S

SF S S S

L S SF S

i think you get my drift .....