Gypsy Picking

mandomax

Any mando pickers care to comment on the rest stroke technique as applied to mandolin in Gypsy music? I've got Bickford and am studying that, and have ordered Michael's book. I play Monroe style quite a bit when I pick bluegrass. Do you think the two techniques (Monroe-style downstrokes and Gypsy style rest strokes) are comparable? I know they differ in terms of rhythm and note selection, but physically do you think a good solid downstroke will translate from one to the other? Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome.
Later,
Max

jmcgann

I think a downstroke rest stroke is pretty much the same whatever style you are playing- it's the ATTITUDE that might change...

Swing Time

I've been banging away at some Django tunes (early stuff, melody oriented rather than chordal improv ...) and wonder if there is a 'different' approach to la pompe on mandolin. The chords and progressions aren't really that difficult (one I learned to forget everything I learned before) but I wonder ... if the place for mandolin as a stable rhythm instrument is really acceptible?

The tenor voice is a bit different sounding - the rhyhtm stroke can come across as strident if played too close to the bridge.

So the question - how do you guys approach the four square rhythm 'chunks' on a mandolin? Open or muted / damped or something in between?

jmcgann

When there is just one rhythm guitar, it tends to be very "straight", like under Django's soloing, but when he comes in as a second rhythm under another soloist, he often "comps", playing higher voicings with different phrasing and rhythmic puncuation.

So if there is another rhythm guitar and it's not all down to just mando for backup, I will take the latter approach at times. Sometimes it just feels good to "chank" along with the rhythm guitar in a straightforward fashion. So I guess I go in and out of that straight chank mode...

I like octave mando for rhythm as you are more in the guitar register. Since the mandolin is in a higher range, it doesn't have the depth to "underline" a guitar soloist, although you can mark time just fine...

rosett

i have a duo with a guitar player, and it's not stricktly gypsy jazz, we play quite a few hot club tunes, as well as alot of jazz standards. i really try to keep my rythym playing interesting. to me the most important thing is listening to the soloist, and responding to what they're doing. sometimes, chunking it out is the thing to do, sometimes, i like to do a moving bass (ha ha) line like eldon shamblin on guitar. on something like "nuages", i play tremloed partial chords, and sustained barre chords, as well as just leaving a lot of space for the soloist to fill.
having the right instrument for the job helps, too. i play an old gibson oval hole mando, which i feel has a lot more sustain (for a mandolin) than most F hole instruments.
john

Bohemian

I do not see Gypsy players or Euro Gypsy JAzz groups using manadolins for the Django style music.

Are mandolins not taken seriously and or simply not considered "proper"
equipment. Is there anyone at Samois or any of the other Djnago fests using mandolin ? Am I simply not aware of gypsy jazz mando players who have attained a level of expertise and respect ?

jmcgann

I'd say it's rare at this time, but the future looks good!

delsbrother

Bohemian wrote:

I do not see Gypsy players or Euro Gypsy JAzz groups using manadolins for the Django style music.

Are mandolins not taken seriously and or simply not considered "proper"
equipment. Is there anyone at Samois or any of the other Djnago fests using mandolin ? Am I simply not aware of gypsy jazz mando players who have attained a level of expertise and respect ?

Doesn't David Grisman count? I mean, seriously, a lot of the mando players I know came to Django through Grisman's music. Is he not "respected" by the gypsy jazz community? I find it interesting that on all the threads here his name is mentioned a total of three times, two of them dealing with CD/DVD sales.

Considering his work with Grappelli, et. al. I would have thought his status in the genre was pretty high.. But as mentioned, there are relatively few mando players in this style.

Is there any kind of "backlash" towards Grisman's sound? Any mando players get funny looks or reprimands at djams for playing too "dawggy"?

jmcgann

I love Grisman's playing, but I also love Alban Berg and The Beatles...dyed in the wool traditionalist Gypsy Jazz players (many of whom aren't gypsies) look down on anything that isn't "pure" and native to the style...I have heard pure Gypsy Jazz players that I thought were stiff and unmusical...there are facists in EVERY style of music waiting to snipe at what is and isn't "pure" or "accepted".

I don't let it bother me.

That said, I would not try to imitate Grisman in a Gypsy jazz context, or any context for that matter.

Kcox

dyed in the wool traditionalist Gypsy Jazz players (many of whom aren't gypsies) look down on anything that isn't "pure" and native to the style

I'm curious, do these "purists" actually exist? This is about the zillionth mention/complaint I have read about them in a post, yet I have yet to actually read anything that remotely approaches such musical fascism. You'd think with all the complaints I see about them the "purists" would be ubiquitously spouting their nonsense, but in truth these dyed-in-the-wool purist seem to me about as rare as Bigfoot. Rare enough, at least, that I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't just a lot of people with delusions of persecution...and if so, is there something about this music that breeds or simply attracts folks with such delusions?

Please don't take that as a personal attack, you are simply one of many people who have made such comments and I just want to know where the heck these freaks are?!?!?!

jmcgann

Not to sound flippant, but if you get off the 'net and get to festivals or performance settings where diehards congregrate, you'll find them...the bebop snob that thinks music stopped evolving in 1959, the bluegrass purist who thinks that bluegrass stopped evolving in 1964, The old time string band purist who thinks bluegrass ruined real music in 1945, the Irish player who thinks chords ruin the purity of everyone playing the melody in unison, the Gypsy Jazz purist who thinks that anyone who lets an upstroke slip by on a string change is polluting the pool...maybe you haven't met them, but I have, and it is the same guy (or gal) with different clothes in each case. They are convinced of their chosen style's absolute superiority over other music forms, PROVIDED the music is played strictly to the letter (as they see it).

There are rock snobs as well.

Funny, they are almost always not the best players, the self-appointed guardians of the tradition!

This is all in my personal experience, YMMV etc.

This is not to say that a player shouldn't respect, understand and learn each style's unique characteristics!