Gypsy Picking

JeePee · September 2005

I am an european mandolin player. Twenty years in bluegrass style and always welcome by US musicians, even bluegrass player...
Since two years, i approach Gypsy style with my mado... always welcome by "gadjo" and real gypsy players.
Do you know Fapy Lafertin? A real gypsy guitar player...
See here:
http://www.hotclub.nl/gallery/wbzaal.jpg
The first musician on the leftside plays... mandolin...

I think the real problem is: today, no one mando player is strong enough to become a "major" player and a leader.
I am a David Grisman's fan, he learned me 90% what i can do with a mandolin. But his "feeling" is quite far from the one Gypsy's fans love.
If you want to play "gypsy mandoline", forget the bluenote! Play minor 6/9 chords, and minor harmonic scale on a V chord... play "triplets" with a down stroke on each first note... David plays something different. It's the reason why Gypsy's fan don't like him...
Gypsy music has the same feeling than the blues, but using different stuffs.
We have to know when we are playing Dawg music and when we are playing Gypsy music... it's not exactly the same...
Friendly.

Jack · September 2005

jmcgann wrote:

Funny, they are almost always not the best players, the self-appointed guardians of the tradition!

What I've found is that these people tend to be fairly new to the style, and are so caught up in 'authenticity' that they leap on anything that goes against what they learned in their last workshop. Whether or not it's musical takes a backseat. I used to be much more hard-line about this kind of stuff myself; over time (thank God) I've loosened up, and it's definitely broadened my horizons. I think that's generally the case-that the 'purists' exist, but it's a changing roster...people grow out of it, to a degree. I remember talking about something similar years ago with a rabbi: my now ex-wife was converting to Judaism, and he mentioned how it was almost always the newly converted who interpreted things most strictly, much to the exasperation of Jews who grew up in the tradition.

JeePee wrote:

I think the real problem is: today, no one mando player is strong enough to become a "major" player and a leader. I am a David Grisman's fan, he learned me 90% what i can do with a mandolin. But his "feeling" is quite far from the one Gypsy's fans love.

Well put. One other thing-and I'm not a mando player, I should say-is that to my ears, the mandolin just isn't a good sound for leading a group in the style; there isn't enough low end, or range, or something like that. I wonder if someone can tell me how the range of something like an oud differs? It seems that some instrument out of that tradition might be a better fit than mandolin. Maybe?

Best,
Jack.

MichaelHorowitz · September 2005

Jack wrote:

What I've found is that these people tend to be fairly new to the style, and are so caught up in 'authenticity' that they leap on anything that goes against what they learned in their last workshop.

That's true....I'd argue that it's for the best. When learning any tradition I think it's best to start with a pretty conservative attitude. Really learn what makes it tick....get the right "accent" in your playing. It's like learning a language...if you take three lessons of Spanish and then just start mixing it up with English you're doing the linguistic equivalent of learning minor swing and then playing bluegrass licks all over it. It may be fun for you...but you'll end up alienating yourself from both traditions.

Personally, I've always felt what makes any tradition great (be it Gypsy jazz, classical, Irish music, klezmer, etc.) is the depth of it. Generations of musicians collectively pooling their talent to create better music. The musical wheat gets separated from chaff and the music gets better and better. For this reason, I think a heavy does of respect should accompany any attempt to learn a tradition. The music has so much to teach you if you just let it.

Once you've really paid your dues it's time to start doing your own thing with it. That's really the ultimate goal....but you can always tell when guys jump to this phase to early.

I've been waiting for someone to really do convincing Gypsy jazz on the mando. I think the mandolin has incredible potential for this genre...you can do la pompe on it for sure. And you can certainly play Django and other jazz lines as well. John McGann is the only person I know who is really doing this on the mandolin. He sounds great!

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delsbrother · September 2005

Hi Jee Pee,

Thanks for the useful comments/tips, especially about Grisman.

Now about that Fapy pic.. First of all, totally cool shot. But I gotta know:

1) Are you the mando player?
2) Are they playing GJ or Fado? Fapy's playing a big honking Guitarra..
3) Not discounting what you're sayin, but check out the look the guitarist is giving the mandolinist! LOL.

Thanks for sharing.

JeePee · September 2005

delsbrother wrote:

Hi Jee Pee,

Now about that Fapy pic.. I gotta know:

1) Are you the mando player?
2) Are they playing GJ or Fado? Fapy's playing a big honking Guitarra..
3) Not discounting what you're sayin, but check out the look the guitarist is giving the mandolinist! LOL.
.

Hi Delsbrother,

1) Unfortunately I'm not the mando player on that pic

I think his name is Tim Kliphouse, violin player during the "gypsy" part...
2) The pic is taked during a part of Fapy's show: "The choro band" and Fapy plays a Portugese 12-string guitarra, an old dream af him...
3) I think, at this moment, Tim plays in duet with Fapy, and the guitar player take a look on the mandolin...

(4) By the way, I have the last Fapy's CD: The 3st song is... "Tango for Django" (David Grisman !!! ). An amazing version, but... without mandolin... :twisted:

Nothing perfect...
Friendly

Fapy's website:
http://www.hotclub.nl/

MichaelHorowitz · September 2005

The mandolin player is Tim Kliphuis. He's not really an accomplished mandolin player. He just does a little duet with Fapy when the play Latin stuff. Most of the time he plays violin. Fapy doesn't use the Portuguese Guitar for jazz...just Latin stuff. So I wouldn't really say this pic is evidence of the use of mandolin in Gypsy jazz.

'm

JeePee · September 2005

Hi Michael,

So you wouldn't really say this pic is evidence of the use of mandolin in Gypsy jazz.
It's right !
But...
When a bluegrass band plays, for example, Sweet Giorgia Brown, Little Rock getaway or Lady be good... does he play "jazz" or "bluegrass"?
Then, when The Fapy Lafertin Quinted plays Vou Vivendo does he play Gypsy jazz or brazilian choro... when he plays a David Grisman's tune (Tango for Django) does-he play Gypsy jazz or Dawg music?
Really, Fapy appears as a saw-cut between Gypsy Jazz and mandolin players: no gypsy music fan knows David Grisman before the new Fapy's CD, and most of them are thinking i play... "a little guitar". And, after explanations, they say: "wow ! a mandolin ! It's a great sound ! It's a very good idea...".

Here, in Europa, we are working, guys...

And we know mandolin is a traditional Gypsy instrument
Nothing lost...

Friendly

delsbrother · September 2005

Ahh, I should've guessed Tim Kliphuis.. I have Fleur d'Ennui and Fine and Dandy and enjoyed them very much. Definitely choro, though.. :roll:

Getting back to the subject of this thread, what are people's opinions of Dave Apollon's picking technique and "Gypsy" playing? Maybe not "Gypsy Jazz," but interesting listening nonetheless, as his career spans that of Django's.. I really appreciate the film shorts on this site, BTW. Thanks to all involved in that!

MichaelHorowitz · September 2005

JeePee wrote:

When a bluegrass band plays, for example, Sweet Giorgia Brown, Little Rock getaway or Lady be good... does he play "jazz" or "bluegrass"?

When I hear bluegrass players do swing tunes it still basicly sounds like bluegrass. They're using a bluegrass approach to improv....like John McGann mentioned. The fiddle tune type of improv which is made up of a steady stream of eight notes, few dynamics, and few syncopations. So it's still pretty bluegrassy....nothing wrong with that but I think it's a stretch to call it jazz.

JeePee wrote:

Then, when The Fapy Lafertin Quinted plays Vou Vivendo does he play Gypsy jazz or brazilian choro...

He's playing choro....there's really no influence from Gypsy jazz. He's not really doing a hybrid style...he's just playing Brazilian music.

JeePee wrote:

when he plays a David Grisman's tune (Tango for Django) does-he play Gypsy jazz or Dawg music?

He's still playing Gypsy jazz...just interpreting a Dawg tune in a Gypsy jazz style. Works pretty well!

JeePee wrote:

Really, Fapy appears as a saw-cut between Gypsy Jazz and mandolin players: no gypsy music fan knows David Grisman before the new Fapy's CD, and most of them are thinking i play... "a little guitar". And, after explanations, they say: "wow ! a mandolin ! It's a great sound ! It's a very good idea...".

To my knowledge Fapy doesn't play the mandolin. He plays the Portuguese guitar. It's pretty different then a mandolin.

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