Valse Manouche - Django or not?

Teddy Dupont

Svanis1337 wrote: »

I almost forgot: Very good analysis of those photos! Interesting read.

Thanks Richard.

Svanis1337

Great transcription! I think it's accurate except the very last things he says. To me it sounds like "the friends in the music and record shop in north new jersey". :hmmm: Could it be some radio collaboration between the US and France? Or between the UK and France, since he mentions "our neighbor nation". Maybe it's during WWII, maybe not. I wonder if the recording was loaned to the radio station by Charles Delaunay, as he had a small collection of privately recorded Django recordings that he broadcasted from time to time. I believe they have also been issued. (On Frémeaux Intégrale.) Perhaps it was called Naguine at that time, or it was just a temporary title.

If it was recorded the 14th Feburary, 1935, it's possibly Alain Romans on the Piano, as he was in session with Django on the 9th and 22nd February. Alain Romans worked at Poste Parisien, a radio station. Perhaps he went off with Django on the 14th February to record a private session with him at the Poste Parisien studios?

source: Fremeaux Intégrale Vol. 2.

"Leon Monosson, acc. par Alain ROMANS du Poste Parisien et son Ensemble"


What I wonder though is how on earth did Matelo Ferré remember these odd recordings for his album Tziganskaïa - The Django Reinhardt Waltzes (1988)???

In that case, it would make more sense for a Ferré to have made the recording, perhaps it was played often and circulated with the Ferrés and thus survived. (If it was even composed by Django in the first place and not by a Ferré.) :shake:
Maybe they had this recording in their possession, and that's where John Bajo got it. From a gypsy.

MAKING PROGRESS!

Teddy Dupont

I don't think Django would have played like this in 1935. Early 1934 perhaps yes but not 1935. This is what he was playing like in April, 1935:-



or



By this time, Django was a 100% jazz musician and had moved on from music like "Valse Manouche" which is quite unlike anything else we have heard from him in form and structure.

Teddy Dupont

Svanis1337 wrote: »

What I wonder though is how on earth did Matelo Ferré remember these odd recordings for his album Tziganskaïa - The Django Reinhardt Waltzes (1988)???

I do not think some of these were composed by Django at all. "Montagne Sainte-Genevieve" perhaps but the rest are more likely to be based on phrases Django may have played that were later put together by Matelo Ferret with his own ideas. Others, to me, are nothing like anything Django would have played and are pure Matelo Ferret from beginning to end.

Jazzaferri

My ears agree with you Teddy. In some I hear a major influence/Django compositions. In others no. Never in that CD do I hear the relaxed fluidity at speed that Django had.

spatzo

Teddy what do you hear exactly? it might be interesting as it is your language...

Above all if Django is not the composer why did he recorded a tune like that? If he had composed those songs as a dedicace refered to Lousson's sons as it is sometimes told he might have made in 1935 a 78 record to materialize the gift... Who knows? but were they already born in 1935 or was Django some king of "medium"?

Anyway it should be really important to have a look to the original support of this recording...

It should also be interesting to examine the hypothesis based on a the fact that those tunes (Choti, Gagoug, Montagne Sainte Geneviève) were indeed copyrighted in London (Chappell if I remember well) by someone in the name of Django Reinhardt. Why did Django decided to do such an anti-gypsy complicated procedure for those waltzes and why he never did the same for any of his compositions he certainly was proud of? (Francis Day editions in Paris had a crazy book of scores presenting copyright of many tunes from Django that were badly transcribed - maybe quickly done by some clercks as they were almost absurd and sometimes you can't even recognize the tune itself) and above all why doing that monkey business in the UK as Django was french, did not spoke english, was unable to write music and went only a few times in London in his life...

Maybe just because he was a member of the British Academy of Songwriters Composers and Authors and that it was mandatory to present something to be admitted?

Was this recording - often presented as being played "flat" by Django with Naguine on piano - made for someone else to transcribe the tunes and present the score to the copyright officers?

We must remember that with Gérard Leveque Django worked in a different way dictating the parts to be transcribed by playing them directly on the guitar. I also think that those transcriptions Django did with Levecque were made only for orchestral purposes as a bigband always needs scores to perform and never to "fix a musical idea" at the exception of Django's Mass maybe as an organist will not improvise of course.

Teddy Dupont

spatzo wrote: »

Teddy what do you hear exactly? it might be interesting as it is your language...

It sounds like a French man speaking poor English to me. I think you are 100% right on his intro Spatzo. What he says after the record is very difficult to distinguish and I can't get any closer than you.

You got to question the man's knowledge when he calls it the Quintet of France rather than the Quintette of the Hot Club of France and the fact that it is clearly not by that group in any case. Other than it was not published, I think he is probably talking tosh.

The information I have indicates that the so called Django waltzes were first published in 1960 in France. That is when Matelo recorded them which makes me highly suspicious. Are we really saying Matelo remembered these waltzes exactly for 25 years? Waltzes that Django never recorded officially and never copyrighted. To me, it's all a bit of a con job. If I was being cynical I would say Matelo thought he would sell more if his record was associated with Django. Just look at the cover of the recording!!!

One story is that Matelo visited Naguine just before the tunes were recorded/published. Perhaps to do a deal with her on the royalties.

Teddy Dupont

It's fascinating how threads often drift off in a direction that has absolutely nothing to do with the original post. :?

MichaelHorowitz

This discussion was created from comments split from: Django’s Pictorial Legacy: The TWA Photos.

Jazzaferri

Once it gets busy in Choti, my ears tell me that Django was the only one who could have played it, although the overall performance is a bit shaky. The more Ai listen to it! the more I think it is him.