Valse Manouche - Django or not?

spatzo

Thanks Mr Jazzaferri!

Teddy Dupont

scot wrote: »

Roger, I think it is more likely that you got your recording of this tune from Fred Sharp.

You may well be right. I've got so much from so many different people over the years, it's difficult to remember exactly where it all came from. It was from one of those two guys for certain and I've probably got the related correspondence filed away somewhere. I think it was Fred Sharp who told me about the recordings Django made with Maurice Chevalier and Edith Piaf!!!! :laugh: ............and then, of course, there is the phantom Django Epiphone

Having taken on board all the logical reasons why it is not Django, it still sounds incredibly like him to me and Stochelo Rosenberg has probably listened to the maestro more often than either Spatzo or me and I don't say that lightly. He is totally convinced it is him based on the playing alone.

wim

I'm fairly convinced by the idea that this is a bit of a Ferret con, Django would not have been interested in doing 'daggy' waltzes like that when he was obsessed with US jazz musicians at the time. Weird copyright thing in England and even the fact that Ferret apparently dodging questions about these tunes makes it seem like he knows there was something sus there and doesn't like to talk about it. And that really tasteless cover art is just the icing on the cake!

As for Stochelo / Fapy claiming it is Django playing, this is not a convincing argument for me .. being great players doesn't mean they can't be wrong about historical stuff sometimes! Am not convinced either by any argument saying the technique is too good to be anyone else but Django, well mark my word the Ferrets could be fantastic players technically - they were all inferior musicians to Django because they don't have that wealth of ideas and creativity, not because of poor technique!

scot

That's a strange snarky post. Are you suggesting that Matelot Ferret decided give Django ownership of tunes he wrote himself (7 years after Django's death) just so he could make more money off of them? How exactly would that work? And having talked at length to at least four people who played with Matelot from 1960 until his death, it's absurd to suggest that he was trying to work some kind of scam. If anything, he was excessively modest and frequently gave the credit for tunes he wrote to others. And the Ferrets lacked creativity and ideas? I really don't understand what you are trying to say here, Wim.

spatzo

I agree with you Scot, Matelo was indeed excessively modest. We should ask to Serge Krief that have studied with Matelo and maybe he could say more to us on those old stories. Anyway the sixties in France (and also in the States I guess) were trully hard years for every jazzman even for Grappelli himself they just didn't had work as the business had changed completely.

When Django was alive he had an incredible popular fame in France, he was a star, but immediately after the end of WW2 the story of popular music changes completely. In that highlight it might have been necessary even for Grappelli to have the name of Django and only Django's name on his records. It was something Stéphane Grappelli had noticed and blammed.

In those years to sell a record you should be named Johnny Halliday or Françoise Hardy, you should sing "yéyé music" with unknown big names in the background such as Pierre Michelot and all jazzmen that had to drop Jazz to live, everybody was working in anonymous studio recording cessions. Accordion was rejected, acoustic guitar was banned, I can tell you that rue de Lappe was dead, Musette was completely gone, you know I lived 100 meters from Rue de Lappe in the sixties and I can be a trustable direct witness, it was my childhood... When Vogue decided then to put Django's photo on Matelo's record to try to boost sales we must remember that in those years most of jazzmen could only publish private production of 500 records private lots with no trading services and payed cash.

The fact that Matelo was on Vogue is already an incredible success! Same for Baro Ferret that was recorded and published thanks to Charles Delaunay.

We should ask to Mitch that is "The Expert" on records sales stats but if I remember well jazz fans in France are not more than 6 000 people even TODAY... and they do not appreciate all jazz evolutions...

Teddy Dupont

stuart wrote: »

....... but in this version the B section sounds more Django-ish - some of the chords and phrasing, particularly the last lick, remind me a lot of his improvisations.

I agree this section sounds the most Djangoesque. I have never heard anyone else play quite like this.

As far as the tremeloes are concerned, it has been pointed out to me that Django's tremeloes on the July, 1935 recording of Avalon are very similar.



I'm not suggesting we should automatically agree with Stochelo Rosenberg's view but we should not dismiss it out of hand because it does not happen to suit our own theories. Also he is only one of many top flight gypsy jazz guitarists who have this view. I try to use every bit of information I can get before coming to a conclusion.

The "Django Reinhardt Undiscovered-Inédit" book which contains five of the so-called Django waltzes "Interprété par Matelo Ferret" states clearly that the copyright for them all is 1960 by Editions du CARROUSEL assigned to Warner Chappell Music France SA. There is no mention of any UK copyright.

P.S. My experience in many areas has shown you can have five "experts" but still have five completely diverse and strongly held views even in quantitative subjects like science and engineering. There's no chance of agreement with music then.

spatzo

We have to check that copyright matter even if it will not untie the knot. Of course the french branch of Warner Chappell might also have been involved just because the Inédit book was produced in France.

I only remember that when I bought the scores in Paris they were addressed in London UK, but now the scores are gone somewhere

wim

scot wrote: »

That's a strange snarky post. Are you suggesting that Matelot Ferret decided give Django ownership of tunes he wrote himself (7 years after Django's death) just so he could make more money off of them? How exactly would that work? And having talked at length to at least four people who played with Matelot from 1960 until his death, it's absurd to suggest that he was trying to work some kind of scam. If anything, he was excessively modest and frequently gave the credit for tunes he wrote to others. And the Ferrets lacked creativity and ideas? I really don't understand what you are trying to say here, Wim.

No I'm not saying necessarily Matelot, if it ever happened like this it could be more the influence or idea of someone else in family or circle of friends. When it comes to finding ways of making money, it is clear that some gypsies have a "different" set of ethics on what is and isn't appropriate.

As for Ferrets lacking in creativity and ideas, yes I stand by that statement - mind you, I'm speaking about their jazz and swing, and I am speaking about levels of creativity relative to Django who was a giant in this respect. I enjoy listening to Ferret's music too, those guys are great but there are many times when I listen to some of their "original" material and I can quite clearly hear exactly which Django tune has inspired the piece, and from where in Django's repertoire they have taken this or that melody or lick

Teddy Dupont

Wim Glenn wrote: »

As for Ferrets lacking in creativity and ideas, yes I stand by that statement - mind you, I'm speaking about their jazz and swing, and I am speaking about levels of creativity relative to Django who was a giant in this respect.

I don't think any of the Ferret's were convincing jazz soloists and only had limited real improvisational ability. Great rhythm players in the Hot Club style though. The fact that Baro realised he could not match Django's creativity is one of the major reasons his career took the path it did.

Boulou and Elios are far better jazz guitarists.

A point that has always baffled me is why did Sarane Ferret never record with Django? His style was closely based on Django's and many of his groups mimicked the HCQ. Far more so than Baro or Matelot yet they both recorded with him. Here is a typical example of Sarane's playing:-

Teddy Dupont

I posted this earlier but here is a reminder of how Baro played/improvised jazz

http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/uploads/FileUpload/226_82420e1ad3c1a6c9ed89031dd42237a3.mp3

Pretty weak I'd say.