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headstock repair

13

Comments

  • paulmcevoy75paulmcevoy75 Portland, MaineNew
    Posts: 913

    It's not an end grain joint, if they are making it like a Selmer. I am not sure how you'd describe it but it's something like a tongue in a groove. It's a very strong joint.

    Buco
  • Posts: 6,059

    There is a low res picture of Selmer plans I uploaded on the first page where that tongue going from the headstock can be seen. That whole thing seems very complex to make.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • Jhol111964Jhol111964 EastNew Patenotte 258
    Posts: 5

    That is a scarf joint, which is not what I see on the damaged guitar. Here's a side view of a headstock scarf joint.


    Buco
  • Posts: 6,059

    @Jhol111964 That's how my guitar has been put together, scarf joint

    I noticed that his recent guitars have a joint as what you would see on Selmers so I asked him about and he said he switched to making a Selmer joint because that's what most people would specifically ask for. A scarf joint seems a lot easier to me to execute. But Selmer did something different, I'm not a woodworker, I just hack it occasionally, but what Selmers have is a tongue and groove type of some sort. They have a perpendicular to the neck splice going on at the joint, which is what's on the damaged guitar, instead of this diagonal line like you showed and what's on my guitar.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • paulmcevoy75paulmcevoy75 Portland, MaineNew
    Posts: 913

    yup the damaged guitar definitely does not have a scarf joint. It appears to be a traditional Selmer joint which is somewhat unique in the guitar world. Tongue and Groove might define it as well as anything else.

    I spent a lot of time working on my own joint and ended up with something I liked without totally realizing how the Selmers are put together and ended up doing the reverse. The Tongue comes from the neck and the groove is cut into the headstock. I think it's marginally stronger than the original Selmer but it probably makes zero difference.

    I glue it with Epoxy. I have no desire for it to come apart and I think it it not trivial to get glue into the joint. I'd rather it breaks somewhere else if it needs to and that part can be glued. But it's wood and if it doesn't snap, it should just be its own shock absorber.

    I think the splining picture is probably a Gibson which is a one piece neck. This is the KING of stupid neck joints. You can not do better unless maybe you did a one piece neck with the grain angled perpendicular to the neck. But as of this moment, Gibson is the long time King.

    Really though their customers deserve a lot of praise because Gibson did try to fix the joint and the customers complained.

    BucoBillDaCostaWilliams
  • JSantaJSanta NY✭✭✭ Duffell, AJL
    Posts: 378

    Not that this is necessarily helpful, but a few years ago at Django a GoGo, Lior Krief's Gaffiero headstock basically exploded at the scarf joint. Like completely pulled apart. Thankfully it was an easy fix for the person we can't talk about to repair right there after a quick Lowe's visit, but it does happen. I think Cyril does a fine job building his guitars, so not a knock on him in the slightest.

    Similar to what Paul is saying, I get that some people want things "authentic", but that doesn't really matter to me much.

  • Jhol111964Jhol111964 EastNew Patenotte 258
    Posts: 5

    Ok, looking closer, I see what might be called a hidden or blind scarf joint on the plans. The internal joint also might be called a mortise and tenon. But its a scarf joint, with long bevel internal surfaces. So its a decent joint, and shouldnt have failed? A repair surely shouldnt have failed? Maybe the wood is extra oily on that neck, and calls for a different glue?

  • Posts: 6,059

    In this discussion some years ago, it was described in various ways including mortise and tenon. No mention of scarf and I doubt you'll find a woodworker who would describe it as such but ok...


    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • Jhol111964Jhol111964 EastNew Patenotte 258
    edited August 25 Posts: 5

    Maybe im not understanding the hidden lines,


    These look like elevation view scarf joints - "scarf" is a generic term for this type of joint, for many crafts and industries, not just guitars and woodworking. The mechanical behavior of this kind of joint is specific, its not just how its made. I couldn't find an expanded view or an actual build image.

    Buco
  • Posts: 6,059

    You might be right, damn! I never noticed the faded line which you circled on the left. It still shows the perpendicular line where they butt together but that faded line certainly looks like a scarf. If that line is supposed to illustrate what the joint looks like inside the groove, then they created a hybrid of several things including indeed a scarf.

    The picture of the drawing that I posted and yours must come from different plans though, the detail in your right circle isn't there in the previous picture. But they both have that faded line at the joint. Nice catch.

    Jhol111964
    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
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