Gonzalo's rhythm

Jazzaferri

Mitch, perhaps I think oddly but IMO teachers come in all shapes and sizes from those that are amazingly aware of their subject and can not only pass on info but can assess where a student is and get that student focussed on acheiving their path ranging down to some who would leave the world a better place by not trying to teach at all.

I have know some gifted players at both ends of the spectrum.

Bones

Not to drag this out too much but I ran across this on the 'Youtubes' and it reminded me of this thread.

Note the stark difference in rhythm styles. It's really obvious especially right at the point where they trade off.

Probably some of it is due to the instruments but I'm sure that mostly it is just how they choose to approach the style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MoUlR-MfPg

Jazzaferri

If they switched I bet they would sound pretty much the same.

Bones

Agreed, my guess is it's 95% technique if not more...

dennis

actually it's not the instrument it's the playing... olli is a very talented and phenomenal musician, but understanding the history of the players would shed some light into this... i met olli when he had just started gypsy jazz, this was maybe 2 or 3 yrs ago; i saw him at his very beginning! he's come such a freakin long way, it's amazing, but you have to understand that his source for learning gypsy jazz was through recordings and youtube (all the way in finland, there's not much to learn from).. i've talked about this in detail in this thread, but his rhythm playing comes from what he heard in recordings which doesn't always translate to what is actually done... this is of course not a criticism of his playing in anyway but it is a fact.. he tends to do his rhythm more like gonzalo with the choked 2 and 4

paulus in this example is also not playing a standard gypsy jazz rhythm, he's doing sort of a flat four / march kinda rhythm where the 1st and 3rd beats are slightly elongated and the 2 and 4 are a little bit weaker.. nonetheless the 2 and 4 are fully voiced...

if u want to hear paulus do a more standard GJ rhythm check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gALnSCJyA

Bones

Yeah, I figured it wasn't a difference in guitars, but how they approach playing rhythm.

Thanks!

Bones

Ok just to kind of put this thing to rest, I talked to Jeff Radaich yesterday after the BMT gig and took a mini-lesson and I asked him specifically to help me with my rhythm playing especially with the 2 and 4 which always seem to give me problems.

He pointed out that my pick speed across the strings was slightly too fast on the 2 and 4 which was causing the harsh tone that I was getting.

To practice this he suggested that I fully damp on the 2 and 4 ONLY for practice purposes so that I can focus on the right hand entirely on those beats.

As far as how much to actually damp with the left hand once I get the right hand correct, he said that that is variable but not fully damped and there is no hard rule on that.

Also, he suggested that I start working on adding a very slight upstroke on 1 and 3 when I get the basic rhythm down.

It's important to emphasize here that all these variables are very subtle. Small changes in technique can yield large variations in tone/swing.

I hope that clears it up

bohemewarbler

IMHO, there's one important point that seems to be missing from this rhythm conversation, and that is if, when, and where the rhythm player adds the upstroke (gracenote) leading into beats 1 and 3. In the technique of Gonzalo and other contemporary GJ players, it seems to be preferred to leave out the upbeat/gracenote altogether. When I asked guitarist Ryan Hoffman (of Pearl Django) about this, he replied wisely, I think, "When I was researching and studying this style in France, Samy Daussat I think put it best when he said that in [GJ] jams, when a bunch of players are all trying to play upstrokes at slightly different times, it sounds like a big mess. So, players just started dropping it in favor of a cleaner more articulate rhythm sound."

I think they same can be said about the muting/not muting on beats 2 and 4.

I have been struggling in attemepting to follow my own teacher's instructions (who received personal instruction from Denis Chang), trying to get the upstroke aligned more closely to beats 1 and 3. If you ask me, this seems to make or break the authenticity of the GJ sound more than how much voice one allows for beats 2 and 4. It might be that when one is performing in a GJ jam, the sound might be cleaner if the players restrict their 2 and 4 beat voice and opt for more muted 2s and 4s for the betterment of the entire ensemble. Likewise, if everyone is on the upstroke leading into beats 1 and 3 at different times in a GJ jam--or placing it here and not there--it might be cleaner to drop the upstrokes on beats 1 and 3 entirely.

However, when performing rhythm in one's own GJ band, one can be freerer to voice those 2s and 4s and to place those upstroke/gracenotes when and where it feels right to give the band the proper swing it needs.

Bones

Regarding the 2 and 4 according to Jeff (Gonzalos rhythm player) my pick speed was too fast (whipping my wrist) which was giving a harsh tone.

He said how much to damp/let ring on 2 and 4 was variable according to personal preference and the particular situation but not completely damped.

The only reason to completely damp is for PRACTICING so that I could concentrate totally on the right hand until I got that correct and automatic so that I didn't have to simultaneously worry about what the left hand was doing.

PS- he also uses an upstroke sometimes but it is VERY close to the 1 and 3

AmundLauritzen

Bones wrote:

PS- he also uses an upstroke sometimes but it is VERY close to the 1 and 3

That's a very important point! It is key to avoid the "galloping" effect and to keep momentum and drive.

I think that's one of the key differences between the American swing rhythm and gypsy rhythm. When American swing players do use the upstroke for percussive effect, it's not nearly as close to the beat as in gypsy jazz. Rhythm veterans please correct me if I'm wrong. This is merely an observation.