Lookng at Django through Givone-coloured glasses

Lango-Django

I've done a bit of checking and find that Denis Chang has indeed already addressed this very topic in his DVD's... so I have a feeling I know what I'm going to be doing next if I ever manage to work my way through all the Givone material...

Will

PS Hey, the thought struck me--- are there perhaps OTHER chord progressions that have their own arp substitutions of which I am also ignorant----?

spud

Dont Thank me Thank mr chang! He has à very simple and clear way of explaining things.
Over all in thé rhythm changes its all about tension and release. If you stay in a D maj territory theres not much tension- too much vanilla.

anthon_74

Hey Ya'll !!

I have all 4 of Denis changs improv DVD's... Is there a particular one that addresses phrases over rhythm changes that I can skip to??

I only spent a little time on Chang's DVD #1, and basically stopped because it seemed "lick"-Centric and I'm needed phrases/note-maps over chord shapes at this point in my development in order to "get to know" the fretboard like a Gypsy Jazzers sees it. 'Licks' seem to often go unused for me, unless they're meticulously presented in context of the chord SHAPE/form being used.

This is why I'm completely LOVING the Givone books !
That said, it seems like 50% of all Django tunes use something similar to the Rhythm changes pattern so I want to be versed in that before DIJ

Anthony

Jazzaferri

What Django was great at was playing inside then outside and back inside much of the time having some lyric phrasing. At times when playing really fast he would just rattle off his go to licks but he really was an inventive genius.

Will IMO one of the best things you could do to add some spice to your playing is take a short phrase MAX 2 bars, that really speaks to you. Takeminimum half an hour a day every day to work on this. It will be the most important part of your practice regime. Learn the phrase yourself. NO transcriptions or on line "cheating. Start with simple ones but the MUST speak to you, raise the hackles kinda thing. Once you have that phrase down, see how many other ways you can play that phrase in the same key. Then start learning it in other keys. If you can sing at all the best way to learn the actual phrase is to be able to sing it before you try and play it.

Don't worry how long it may take you to learn it. That isn't the point of this exercise, nor is playing the phrase the true goal, it is just a method.

What you need to be able to do with it is to play it in one position in one key without thinking. A good test is being able to play it well while talking to someone about something completely different.

Once you have achieved all that, which may take a few weeks or a few months depending on how much time you can focus on it then you can move on to another one.

Another thing, before you start take two minutes and just breathe in and out letting yourself completely relax and then just start with a note or two always keeping relaxed. Dont worry about the metronome timing until you can play the whole phrase. and practice it REALLY slowly. with feel.

If you try this let me know how it works for you.

Passacaglia

Jazzaferri wrote:

What Django was great at was playing inside then outside and back inside much of the time having some lyric phrasing. At times when playing really fast he would just rattle off his go to licks but he really was an inventive genius.

Will IMO one of the best things you could do to add some spice to your playing is take a short phrase MAX 2 bars, that really speaks to you. Takeminimum half an hour a day every day to work on this. It will be the most important part of your practice regime. Learn the phrase yourself. NO transcriptions or on line "cheating. Start with simple ones but the MUST speak to you, raise the hackles kinda thing. Once you have that phrase down, see how many other ways you can play that phrase in the same key. Then start learning it in other keys. If you can sing at all the best way to learn the actual phrase is to be able to sing it before you try and play it.

Don't worry how long it may take you to learn it. That isn't the point of this exercise, nor is playing the phrase the true goal, it is just a method.

What you need to be able to do with it is to play it in one position in one key without thinking. A good test is being able to play it well while talking to someone about something completely different.

Once you have achieved all that, which may take a few weeks or a few months depending on how much time you can focus on it then you can move on to another one.

Another thing, before you start take two minutes and just breathe in and out letting yourself completely relax and then just start with a note or two always keeping relaxed. Dont worry about the metronome timing until you can play the whole phrase. and practice it REALLY slowly. with feel.

If you try this let me know how it works for you.

Jazz, I know this was directed to Will, but I found your post very useful, as always, and it's given me some pause, so please forgive the intrusion. I do have the tendency to swing (no pun intended) between one plan that seems to be working and another plan, from impatience or what you will.

Basically, I took your advice, Gonzalo's advice, Denis's advice - which I'll call, for shorthand, "One cut made well is better than 1000 made poorly" (forgive the swordsmanship line - I think it fits)." To that end, I've been working on very few things - basically, my latest thing is to float between 6th string and 5th string-root arps and/or patterns, couple each in M, m, and 7th, and play them across a few tunes. It's getting decently fluid.

Intrigued - that sells it short; pretty deeply keyed - by the discussion here on M. Givone's method, I got the book. And find myself lusting after the entire thing, mostly based on the sound I'm hearing listening to the accompanying CD.

In a word, I wonder if impatience has gotten the better part of me. While I am feeling some nice progress using the sparer, narrower path, well....it's not the "sound," if you know what I mean. Givone is a master I could easily devote myself trying to emulate.

Not even sure what I'm posting. in the midst of a bit of a flareup, and my brain tends to follow suit... just piqued by what looks like two, clear, divergent paths one could take. Basically, work one M run until it's like breathing, or learn these positions? Am I falsely posing this as a zero sum game, meaning, I guess, do you see benefit to doing both?

Sorry if this is muddled; I hope it's at least somewhat clear what I'm asking.

EDIT: (sorry for the redundant bandwidth, Michael, just didn't want Jazz's excellent post to get lost by my bumping up a second page - so wanted it not to get lost by my, uh, loquaciousness).

anthon_74

I'm inspired to share a teaching technique I've been using to teach 8 - 12 year old's how to solo in my guitar teaching practice, AND as I've been following it myself (to a certain extent)...

So, I do a series of live playalongs with my students (usually 12 bar blues).

1st - I have them just play up and down their pent scale in the key of the song, TO THE RHYTHM I tell them (with those who are ready, I also have them play the 3 block triplet pattern to the rhythm).

2nd - I have them play single notes in the scale, in any order, slowly, one after the other, putting as much vibratto/bends, and general feeling into each note as they can (FYI they are allowed to play the SAME note over and over fast, but no scale runs or fancy licks).

3rd - I have them use a single lick, and build a series of phrases over that single lick.

4th - I have them solo with NO RULES.

To apply to Gypsy Jazz, this is what I do -
the first exercise is just playing over the changes with just the basic arps fitting each chord.

Then playing note to note, slowly enough so that every note is 'RIGHT' and you're never lost or guessing on a note.

Then Play a single form and it's corresponding phrase (6/9, 7th, minor6 etc) over all the changes in the song.

Then NO RULES.

This creates variety and discipline.

spud

anthon_74 wrote:

Hey Ya'll !!

I have all 4 of Denis changs improv DVD's... Is there a particular one that addresses phrases over rhythm changes that I can skip to??

I only spent a little time on Chang's DVD #1, and basically stopped because it seemed "lick"-Centric and I'm needed phrases/note-maps over chord shapes at this point in my development in order to "get to know" the fretboard like a Gypsy Jazzers sees it. 'Licks' seem to often go unused for me, unless they're meticulously presented in context of the chord SHAPE/form being used.

Anthony

you obviously didnt get far into changs dvds because he dicusses exactly what you are talking about interms of linking the licks to chord shapes and fretboard mapping. in fact he repeats it many a time.
and you can probably read on one of the dvd covers or menus that it talks about how to deal with rhythm changes.
its not enough to buy the stuff you have to at least flick through it a bit.

Jazzaferri

Will and Pass I am happy that my words have some support for you. I believe very strongly now that the learning methodology that I am using (which I learned from Kenny Werner) takes one farther and faster in the medium term.

For years I found myself learning something til I could play it reasonably well and then I would go back to it and find I was sloppy or slow. Kenny asked me if I had ever poked myself in the eye while eating. No, couldn't say I had. Well, when you have something truly mastered it becomes effortless and if one goes back to it one doesn't notice any change. I reflected that I had spent 6 weeks in Pakistan eating with my fingers and when I came back I didn't try and put food in my nose so he was likely correct.

Since I have been (mostly) on this path, and yes I too find it so hard. ...... :oops: gotta learn this song .... Gotta get this lick etc etc ..... My guitar playing has advanced significantly in spite of spending most of my practice time on sax. My sax playing has significantly passed the point I was at when I was 18 which that point I had been playing for 10 years , after a year and a half of concentrated practice using this technique

Sax is so much easier today fast than guitar hehehe. No pick hand to coordinate and slow me down. Imagine being able to play a scale as fast as one can sweep pick an arp. 8) but it is just a trick like sweep picking that once learned isn't all that hard.

Anyway, maybe we should start a thread about mastering the art of walking before trying to run

Oh and by the way, every once and a while I try and play as fast as my pick hand can move not worrying about what notes or how it sounds. Just to get the feel of free and fast, then it's back to slow and easy relaxed.

Jazzaferri

The possible trouble with learning only licks and phrases instead of scales is the limitation in the long run. For many that will not be an issue, but I think it best to make decisions wit full knowledge beforehand.

Scales are like the alphabet of music. Most people hate em because they try and learn them in a boring pattern like way. Once the basic fingering is known my rules are that one has to improvise music using the notes of the scale using rhythmic variation and short phrases in sequence going up and down.

Passacaglia

"...when I came back I didn't try and put food in my nose so he was likely correct."

So, what I'm drawing from this is, the fact I'm using my pick to comb my hair, and my chef's knife to do tremolos, means I've been pushing it, right?

If I'm hearing you right, Jazz - I've admitted I really take to DG's sound, as my first pass through the book's CD gave; so - rather than concentrating on even learning just the first 5 positions (seems a humble enough goal), much to be advised in getting his first run down - literally, just the top of page 20, first form - so much so that it's as native as breathing.

Then position 2. And so on, right? Or, in the alternative, picking a short phrase from anyone, anywhere, and just get it down, in the way you're talking. And keep doing it. Gonzalo's 3 basic runs in M, m, 7. Chewing 100x before swallowing, in lieu of trying to swallow an entire book, or family of arps, etc., in toto. This is basically the thrust?

Thanks - it's been really fruitful.

Paul

edit: posted before your second post. I've been following your thoughts on scales and "language." It's been really interesting, and I'm not sure where I am on that continuum of choice that you're discussing. But it's been great food for thought, Jay. Many thanks again.