Substitute arps SOS...

Lango-Django

I'm just back from Paris, where I saw the wonderful Django exposition at the Cite de la Musique. You have to enter and exit the exhibit through the gift shop, of course. So just as I was entering, I heard a marvellous version of a good old Duke Ellington tune I happen to know, "In a Sentimental Mood".

IMHO, this version was even an improvement over Django's recording--- words which I don't choose lightly.

So I had to stop and ask the guy behind the counter to save a copy of the CD for me to pick up as I left. Turned out it was on a 2010 recording called "The Djangologists", by the Rosenberg Trio, also featuring guest artist Birelli Lagrene on several tracks, but not this particular track.

Here is the first eight bars of the song, perhaps you'll recognize it.



Stochelo Rosenberg's statement of the melody is masterful, and you'll discover just how masterful if you try to play along. Always staying just a few tantalizing milliseconds away from the beat, he spices up the slow, lazy melody with some hot, passionate arps... here's the first eight bars as a sample.



It is these arps that I want to ask you smart people at djangobooks.com about. What I don't understand is the "why": [b]why[/b] do these arps work so well over unrelated chords? I would never have thought of them in a million years; [b]why[/b] would Stochelo think of using them?

(OK, I mean [i]besides[/i] the fact that Stochelo is a genius and yours truly is an idiot...)

The first example is played over the DmMaj7 chord in bar 2. I make it out to be some kind of variation of a Bbm arp leading back to F maj:

-----------------8--11--9--11H--9P--8-------------------------
-------6--8--9---------------------------11--8--9--10----------
----6-------------------------------------------------------------
-8---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The second one happens over the Dm7 at bar six: Ebm6 leading to Gm...?

-------------------------------------------------6--8--10--8--
-4--3----------------------------------------8-----------------
-------5--3-------------------------------7-------------------
-------------4--3------------------5--8-----------------------
-------------------6--5--3-----5-----------------------------
----------------------------6--------------------------------

BTW, I don't claim these fingerings are totally perfect, if anyone can improve on them, please be my guest!

But mainly, I want to understand how to think like :idea: , because right now I am totally :?:

Thanks,

Will

Jazzaferri

The first example has a 3 note Bbminor arp and the rest is scalar

The second example has the Bb minor arp beginning at S6F6 and ending at S1F6 the rest is scalar

Mixing arps into phrases is one of the basics of melodic invention but remember the music isnt in the notes you find the music in the spaces between the notes.

Jazzaferri

Doubled

Jazzaferri

Sorry Will

Brain was stillrecovering from Friday night in hospital with bad case of vertigo ( at first thought to be having a stroke)

The second arp I mentioned as a Gmin starting on the 3rd the Bb. Again my apologies for being so dpey. i hope I didnt steer you too far wrong :oops:

The first arp is a root position Bb min triad followed be a raised six and on to the flat 7. That phrase could be thought of as Ab Dorian but that is just words to describe the tonality of the phrase.

Jon

There are no substitute arpeggios going on here. If you listen to the rhythm guitar, it is playing a quite common alternate version of the chords, Dm (or you can use Bm7b5 to get a chromatic bassline going, but probably not on the first A section) - Bbm6 (or most mainstream jazz people would play Bb7) - Am (or potentially F/A) - D7 (or Ab7 for the chromatic bass) - Gm etc...Stochelo is playing over those chords.

Never trust sheet music! That chart has little to do with what the rhythm guitar is playing here.

Stochelo is just playing over different chords to the "standard real book version". He is, however, playing over exactly the same chords as the rhythm guitar - no funny business.

Jon

Jazzaferri

My comments only pertain to Will's tab post FWIW

the mp doesn't play on my iPad

Jon

Although it's not the case here, a Bb min arpeggio will still make sense over a D minor chord in some instances. It is often used as a substitution, or an upper-structure, over a superimposed V chord (A7 in this case), where you create a bit of tension during a long period on one chord by superimposing it's V chord, then resolving back to the chord you were on to begin with. The Bb minor chord gives you the b9,3, and #5 (and the b7 if you make it a min6 chord) of the A7 chord, which is a cool sound. Lots of manouche players use this sound often. I highly doubt that (m)any of them think of it in these terms, although it can't hurt to understand things in lots of different ways.

It can also be thought of as the II chord of the tritone sub of the V chord - in this case, Bbm would be the II chord of Eb7, which in turn is the tritone sub of A7, the V of Dm.

So, lots of ways to justify it with words, but better practically just to notice when and how the masters use it, and then follow their lead. In this case though, it is not a sub at all, but just part of the chord progression.

Jon

Jon

When I say they use it often, I mean using bVIm over V7 - say as part of a II-V-I - not superimposing V over I (when it's not present in the backing), which is not all that common, as for the most part, and excepting maybe Bireli and some of the young guys, most people - even the greats - follow the chords pretty predictably and create interest in other ways.

Lango-Django

Thanks, everyone, for your insightful posts... I realize that Jon is probably right about the Rosenbergs not using the exact sheet music chords... D'oh! Why didn't I think of that!

Sorry about the sound not working, Jay, let's try it a different way and see if this works...





Will

Jon

Django's changes to this song are really odd, but they also include the Bbm as the second chord. They sound nothing like the fake-book harmonisation though, and amount to a completely novel, essentially unrelated set of chords to the original. Brilliant!



Crazy stuff like this used to happen a lot more before fake-books. Very hard to imagine this, or the harmony from, for instance, Django's Bolero arising in the post Aebersold/Sher era. The 30s were a special time for jazz harmony - as much of the time they really were inventing it anew, and going for novelty and difference, rather than conforming to a tradition or a system. It can be a bit hit and miss, but when it hits, it really hits.

Jon

Lango-Django

wow, Jon, you are a treasure trove of information... Are you new around here?

I'd just always played that song with the fake book changes and it never occurred to me that it would be harmonized any other way!

The picture of Django on your YouTube clip reminded me of seeing that Gibson-style F-hole guitar with the block pearl inlays at the Paris Cite de la Musique exhibition, which closes today on Django's birthday. (BTW, happy 103rd, old friend! You will never, ever be forgotten as long as the guitar is played on this planet!)

According to the museum exhibit, this was not a guitar that Django ever actually used in concert. He just borrowed it for the photo session from the Ellington Orchestra's guitar-banjoist Freddy Guy. It has a weird-shaped head, sort of like a Gibson L-model mandolin and the brand name is a "Levin" which I'd never heard of before.

Will