Gypsy improvisation

Charles Meadows

Christian,

Interesting observations. Stochelo does seem to be a pretty "lick based" player. But boy is he good at it! How much of stringing those licks together depends on knowing what chords are coming - as opposed to just playing based on "feel"? In my years of playing other styles anything I "improvised" would be essentially just licks strung together. Maybe that's why I am so drawn to players like Angelo Debarre who seem to have endless improv ideas.

Passacaglia

Charles Meadows wrote:

Christian,

Interesting observations. Stochelo does seem to be a pretty "lick based" player. But boy is he good at it!

Totally agreed, Charles, that's my perception, too. That, and his unparalleled (imho) purity of tone. His sound blows me away.

Hemert

Look, I understand it seems very strange but playing on the fly, a song I've never played before? I can do all that too, actually I can do that really fast. Just as fast as Stochelo, sometimes even faster. It's not because of my fantastic ears but because I know the music and its conventions. I also play nine instruments of which 5 on a professional level so I can just look at the guitar player, bass player, piano player, bandoneon player and I can see what the chords are but I don't even need that for gypsy jazz. All the songs consist of II-V-I's, Christophe changes, rhythm changes bridges, honeysuckle rose bridges, caravan bridges or Minor Swing type progressions. If you know those, figuring out chords on the fly is dead easy.

That video where the trio is figuring out chords is where they are listening to their own recording of the Czardas, just relearning it. That song consists for the most part of three chords and is very easy to play (except for the unintuitive "bridge" which you tend to play wrong if you don't know the chords there). In that clip Stochelo is figuring out the (very easy) chords and Nous'che just looks at Stochelo's hands. I do not want to disappoint you or take the magic away but it's just that.

If you know the conventions of the style you're playing figuring out stuff on the fly is very easy. Playing well however is not easy at all and takes hard, hard work and a lot of time with your instrument. Ear training is fine, I'm just saying I never did it and can still transcribe complete symphonies if I have to so I know that good ears are not needed (nothing wrong with it of course, just don't spend too much time on them).

Can I sing the lines I play during a solo? Of course, but not because I'm playing what I hear in my head but because I'm singing what I'm playing. The lines I hear in my head are the lines I've practiced. I can hear simple stuff in my head otherwise but those lines wouldn't make for an interesting solo for three choruses.

Passacaglia

Christiaan, you don't disappoint me, or take the magic away. I think you're an amazing player and I appreciate the resource your website provides. I think we're all better for it. I certainly am.

I call foul, though, and do think you overpaint that there's one way in, when I hear things like "ear training is a waste of time," or "learning arpeggios is a waste of time." I think these are huge overstatements. I've come to believe that, anyway.

If Fapy can learn arpeggios in positions across the fretboard - I can't believe learning arpeggios this is a waste of time.

If, as Stochelo says on the Hyperhipmedia DVD, as I'm listening to right now,

Stochelo Rosenberg wrote:

...actually, I didn't have the chance like now, with DVDs and CDs, so it was very old school, just listening and hear what Django was playing, and try to do it like that....I think in this kind of style, it's better to get a good ear, to listen...

I call that, transcription and ear training. Isn't it? And that's Stochelo himself, saying it. How could that be a waste of time?

Passacaglia

Hemert wrote:

Look, I understand it seems very strange but playing on the fly, a song I've never played before? I can do all that too, actually I can do that really fast. Just as fast as Stochelo, sometimes even faster. It's not because of my fantastic ears but because I know the music and its conventions. I also play nine instruments of which 5 on a professional level so I can just look at the guitar player, bass player, piano player, bandoneon player and I can see what the chords are but I don't even need that for gypsy jazz. All the songs consist of II-V-I's, Christophe changes, rhythm changes bridges, honeysuckle rose bridges, caravan bridges or Minor Swing type progressions. If you know those, figuring out chords on the fly is dead easy.

That video where the trio is figuring out chords is where they are listening to their own recording of the Czardas, just relearning it. That song consists for the most part of three chords and is very easy to play (except for the unintuitive "bridge" which you tend to play wrong if you don't know the chords there). In that clip Stochelo is figuring out the (very easy) chords and Nous'che just looks at Stochelo's hands. I do not want to disappoint you or take the magic away but it's just that.

If you know the conventions of the style you're playing figuring out stuff on the fly is very easy. Playing well however is not easy at all and takes hard, hard work and a lot of time with your instrument. Ear training is fine, I'm just saying I never did it and can still transcribe complete symphonies if I have to so I know that good ears are not needed (nothing wrong with it of course, just don't spend too much time on them).

Can I sing the lines I play during a solo? Of course, but not because I'm playing what I hear in my head but because I'm singing what I'm playing. The lines I hear in my head are the lines I've practiced. I can hear simple stuff in my head otherwise but those lines wouldn't make for an interesting solo for three choruses.

Christiaan, you don't "disappoint me, or take the magic away." I think you're an amazing player and I appreciate the resource your website provides. I think we're all better for it. I certainly am.

I call foul, though, and do think you overpaint that there's one way in, when I hear things like "ear training is a waste of time," or "learning arpeggios is a waste of time." I think these are huge overstatements. I've come to believe that, anyway.

If Fapy can learn arpeggios in positions across the fretboard; if Stephane Wrembel has a book of nothing but arpeggios - and, as I understand it, still runs them regularly - I can't believe learning arpeggios is a waste of time.

If, as Stochelo says on Denis's/Hyperhipmedia's DVD, as I'm listening to right now,

Stochelo Rosenberg wrote:

...actually, I didn't have the chance like now, with DVDs and CDs, so it was very old school, just listening and hear what Django was playing, and try to do it like that....I think in this kind of style, it's better to get a good ear, to listen...

I call that, transcription and ear training. Isn't it? And that's Stochelo himself, saying it. How could that be a waste of time?

My point, really, is this - everyone wants to become a better player. I think it's dangerous to dismiss entire approaches as meaningless. Particularly when the very "greats" we emulate, practiced these very approaches. Yes?

Hemert

Stochelo is talking about developing an ear for the music, developing good taste as do I. Stochelo is certainly not playing what he hears in his head. He's playing what he has studied and making it his own.

Studying arpeggios, scales and ear training are all excellent but I'd rather spend that time practicing something I can use the next day during a solo, that's all I'm saying.

Passacaglia

Hemert wrote:

Stochelo is talking about developing an ear for the music, developing good taste as do I. Stochelo is certainly not playing what he hears in his head. He's playing what he has studied and making it his own.

Studying arpeggios, scales and ear training are all excellent but I'd rather spend that time practicing something I can use the next day during a solo, that's all I'm saying.

Sorry to push on this, Christiaan, but Stochelo said, literally, "I didn't do anything but listen to Django, and try to play what he plays." It's an ear, as in, trained himself to hear what was going on, and tried to play it. Not "an ear," as in, "developing good taste," or a "broader palate." It's replicating Django. That is literally, transcription, unless I've got a really fucked up sense of what transcription means. And to learn, that's what Stochelo did - right? It's what Bireli, and a boatload of others have done, yes?

And I need to push again. How can you say, arpeggios and ear training are excellent - while calling them a waste of time?

That's when I call foul. Folks who could really use guidance aren't served.

Hemert

I was obviously not talking about transcription because that's all I do. Transcribing is very important, but that's not ear training. Ear training - for me - is when you sit behind a piano (or guitar) and try to memorize the sound of chords and progressions or hear certain intervals.

Anyway I'll write more tomorrow, off to bed now

dennis

that's just semantics, what isn't ear training for you, is for just about everyone else i know!! :P :P

I consider guys like Tcha and Bireli , for example, to be two players who are at the top of their game as far as ear training goes. (Bireli can scat a mean solo)

EDIT: BTW Tcha told me one of his fondest childhood memories is going over to Koen De Cauter's house, where Koen would get his sons and tcha to gather around the piano, and he'd play intervals, chords, chord progressions, etc... and the kids would have to figure out what they were . So Tcha is someone who did work on that aspect of ear training as Christiaan defines it

But at any rate, anything and everything you can do to improve your ears is worth it, it makes no sense to me to say otherwise... granted, i'd probably spend more time figuring out actual music by ear rather than doing the drills that koen had his kids do, but like i said, it's all good ..

pickitjohn

Very well song Stuart

thanks

pickitjohn