Purely a rhythm player

Bones

Hey Kung, do you think that the soloist just meant to not vary your rhythm playing to match (reinforce) the rhythmic ideas of the soloist? I know some lead players don't like that. I doubt that they strictly meant to not listen to them because, at a minimum, the rhythm section needs to change volume to not bury the lead player if they quiet down during a section (dynamics). But I do agree that the rhythm section should not be too 'busy' behind the soloist. Also, some soloists don't like altered chords thrown at them but it is good to listen for those 'color tones' in their solos and adjust accordingly if necessary.

On the flip side, +1for Django being the all time #1 rhythm player. Simply amazing. Talk about being busy and changing things up but he was so good at it and really drives the whole band that he more than gets away with it.

Al Watsky

The problem with statements like"you should never interact with _____ fill in the blank" seems to be that it takes the musicality out of the equation.
Often it seems when people are trying to get hobbyist musicians or non musicians to play a "style", they make pronouncements of one sort or another that are invalid on several levels , but seem to serve a need at the moment.
Music always includes interaction and listening.
The point of the rhythm/lead separation is so that more texture and polyrhythm can be constructed not less.
Students need to be taught musicality and the concept of rhythmic strata.
Rhythm is a logical science.
You don't as a rhythm guitarist play the breaks and cuts from a head arrangement throughout the 6 minutes of an improvisation.
Yet people do it.
Your not supposed to play in the same rhythmic groupings as the soloist as that deflates all tension , violates every rule of poly rhythm. Yet folks do it.
Its about musicality. Not about tricks.
A rhythm guitarist can lift a whole band up if they have any sense of proportion .
Listening to great music is a good cure all the problems.
Play with the great recordings

dennis

the problem with interaction, even with the non invasive ones, is that a lot of players dont know how to do it properly, and in that case, i agree that the rhythm should be straight... this happens with players who wobble too much in tempo.. and to be fair it s not an easy thung, it requires tons of experience to get the groove just right.

what happens when they try to interact is that when they play soft they slow down, when they play hard they speed up. or if they try to do a rhythmic accent they go out of tempo.. and in which case, indeed i d very much rather a robotic rhythm machine!

but like i said non invasive interactiin is important, just listen to recordings of the masters... none of them do any wild tricks but they listen and react accordingly, it s very subtle but it elevates the music

dennis

i think everyone agrees, the rhthk should not be about heeey look at me! it should be about supporting the soloist, and i describe it as being always right behind the soloist in terms of volume, and to never get in his way..

it s true that a lot of amateur bands do too much, but when i said there isnt a lot of interaction, i mainly meant some professional enembles..

to me interaction also involves using the appropriate chord voicings... a lot of playrrs stick to their prefered voicings, but i choose my voicings according to the olayer, the repertoire, and the style.

kungfumonk007

Yes - we are definitely making different comparisons so talking around each other. I used to hire a lot of jazz players for my group. At this point I refuse to hire someone if they have a jazz studies degree because their playing is so darned inappropriate. My bass player is grandfathered in because I hired him long before he got his jazz studies degree :0) I think a lot of rhythm players get confused when first starting out because the soloists, while playing rhythm behind a different soloist can be very interactive and busy, but the primary rhythm player should still be understated.

Michael Bauer

I've had the good fortune to cross paths with a lot of fine players at Django in June and elsewhere. One thing they all seem to agree on is that the rhythm player should keep it simple. Gonzalo, Wrembel, and many others have all stated that they prefer the rhythm bitch keep in basic. Wrembel once admonished me not to show him how many chords I know, but to keep it basic and stay out of the soloists way. I've taken all that to heart…perhaps too much to heart.

I also think things are one way when you have a bass player. Walking bass lines can get in his way, where if it's just two guitars, more might be better. In our band, we have two guitars, bass, and violin. Patrick Kelsh pays lead, and I leave the rhythm fills and tricks to him. I just try to be the drummer. It may not work in other settings, but it seems to work in the band. Someone needs to keep time and make sure that everyone stays on form, and that guy is me.

I think when you get to guys like Denis and other top-shelf rhythm players. they have the taste and the chops to tart it up a bit without intruding on the soloist. That takes skill and experience beyond my meager talents.

Lango-Django

Yup, that's good advice, Michael.

A good rhythm bitch should play the correct chords, keep the tempo accurately, and never never assert any control over the group's volume.. that is for the soloist!

Occasionally, gifted players like Dennis Chang and Rino van H who don't fall into the "rhythm bitch" category may add their own little touches to the rhythm, but for most of us it is much better to SITFB... stay in the #%$& background!

kungfumonk007

Well check this out - right on Denis site you have to videos one stating how you SHOULD interact:

And the other stating how you SHOULDN'T interact (1:50 into the video):

I would agree with both :0). It is hard to be appropriate unless you've played with someone a few times.

Jim Kaznosky

Tommaso Papini taught a great rhythm class where he mentioned a couple of things that stuck with me. Playing rhythm in a GJ band is an act of devotion to the soloists. I rather enjoyed this. Second, he suggested thinking of the bass player and rhythm player as one instrument. Lock in with them and devote your playing to support the soloists. And last, he said, don't be the "Look at me! I'm doing the Thing!" guy because no one will want to play with you.

This was excellent advice for me and I try to find that seat as close to the bass as possible.

Al Watsky

And if there were a bass drum the double bass would cleave unto that .
Thats the job.
Thats not to say that its a thankless one.
Also thats not to say that in the case of double bass and guitar , that they should play the same thing.
Interlocking layers that support each other but can stand alone is whats needed.
Thats how music gets made.
The small things such as accents are very important.
They have to be logical and placed accurately time after time.
Once the illusion of forward motion is established, more experienced players can adjust the forward motion with subtle shifts of acceleration and accent to change the feel over the course of a chorus .
Any single element that destroys the illusion of the suspension of time or the sense of forward motion is the bad thing.
Anything else is allowed IMO