rhythm type in Double Jeu by Stochelo Rosenberg

Jazzaferri

When first trying to help I loaded the song into Anytune Pro and listened to it at half speed and reported back.

I just spent the time to listen to this at full speed and count it through. I hear the melody line as 4 beats to the bar and the rhythm is subdivided into triplet eighths on each of those pulses. So that actually makes it 12/8 (two bars of 6/8 turned into one) which of course is the foundation rhythm for jazz.

Listen to the lead carefully and I think most will agree that the lead line is in 4/4

bopster

Gypsy Rhumba Waltz 6/8

dennis

It's kinda of a 6/8 rhumba waltz. The basic idea isn't complicated, you strump 6 8th notes in a bar, everything is muted except the first and 4th stroke.

However, there are more subtle details and variations that make it more interesting.

Hono has his own way of doing and so does Nousche. As Bopster posted above, that is an excerpt from the Hono lesson I produced.

I also produced a series of lessons with Nousche where he shows his way of doing it ,and even plays the song

Bones

Yep, I should have listened to it more closely and slowed down before I posted. Yeah 6/8 or 3/4 they only sound 2 beats per 6 eighth notes (not 4 as I noted.

I think each 6 pulses are like this with sound on pulse 1 and 4 as Denis notes. Same basic syncopation just less sounded pulses. I'm sure there are lots of ways to vary this to get a similar sound.

1&2&3&
/ X X / X X

/ = sound
X = damp

NylonDave

Did anyone bother to check out any Venezuelan Waltzes ?

Seems not.

It's real easy to recognise whether someone has internalised polyrhythms when they play. I just saw a lead sheet, it is wrong. Whoever did it might enjoy studying South American Waltzes or Buleria. It would really help them get their rhythm even.

D.

NylonDave

Looking back my last post seems a bit grumpy.

It might be more constructive to watch this vid and count along as Stochelo taps three to a bar the whole time. Anyone learning the tune would do well to tap their foot and count along, 123 123 etc.

Another thing there seems to be some confusion about the difference between a beat and an accent. Time feel is complicated, don't try and hide from that it is more fun when you embrace it.

Way more fun.

Also they play loads of triplets, think about it !




D.

Buco

I did listen to Cardoso and liked him, although I didn't hear much correlation to the rhythm discussed here. But I like this kind of stuff too, I sometimes listen to Guinga, Sergio & Odair Assad.
I'm pretty sure I described this rhythm correctly earlier but didn't get yay or nay either. That sounds like exactly what Hono is doing, except his 2 and 4 chords seem to land right on the beat but I still think in the performance situation they're whipped faster so they fall on the top of preceding beat. Could be that it's always on the beat though. Same rhythm as Made in France by the way.

PS watching Hono again playing this, the chords 2 and 4 definitely are on the top of beats 2 and 5, he plays them with the upstroke so they happen on the "and" of 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and... being that he demonstrated the dry rhythm as I described earlier, constant 16th note hits in the 6/8 time.

Jazzaferri

If you slow the Rosenberg version way down though its a bit hard to pick out at times with 3 guitars going at it and Nousche down I the mix the rhythm does change emphasis and technique a fair bit...not sure why

NylonDave

Buco wrote: »

I did listen to Cardoso and liked him, although I didn't hear much correlation to the rhythm discussed here. But I like this kind of stuff too, I sometimes listen to Guinga, Sergio & Odair Assad.
I'm pretty sure I described this rhythm correctly earlier but didn't get yay or nay either. That sounds like exactly what Hono is doing, except his 2 and 4 chords seem to land right on the beat but I still think in the performance situation they're whipped faster so they fall on the top of preceding beat. Could be that it's always on the beat though. Same rhythm as Made in France by the way.

The Cordoso reccomendation was for a book, it's a couple years study. Here he is playing a Waltz, you should be able to hear the correlation. If not listen a few more times. Yeah, by all means take your time before making assumptions about which of us is being glib.



And here is a plodding version of the Waltz, in the style of Lauro, from Cardoso's book.




The MELODY of the even eight modern Gypsy Waltzes are most often in the style of a Venezuelan Waltz. I recommended Lauro as a starting point with this style, mainly because that seems to be where Bireli and Stochelo took their inspiration (and lifted the harmony). This piece, Natalia, in particular (same key etc.)


These Waltzes are also called Vals Criolla to point out the connection to African rhythms I guess. The music needs to be metronomically accurate and the feel comes from the addition of the accents from 3/4 and 6/8 but most of the time the melody itself is very obviously in 3/4 (obvious enough fro a GOOD reader to spot instantly).



As I watch this thread grind on it is increasingly obvious to me why Waltzes in jam sessions break down. Too many guys looking for quick answers and getting the wrong end of the stick, trying to play in the wrong time signature starting at quaver=160 and reaching 230 inside thirty seconds and watching the soloist sweating blood as half a dozen dudes tap their feet out of time.

Ear training is about more than pitch. Notation is not about convenience nor even pedantry it is about conveying the sense of the music accurately.


Here is what a score in the wrong time signature looks like.

he. Rei shwatas corei nth. Wer ongti mesi gnat urel ook slike.

The two versions of that phrase above are both correct, if you can't really read.

But be careful, if you confidently insist too often that the second is the right one, because an expert told you so, then people are going to draw some conclusions......

D.

Buco

Natalia is a different story, that one is spot on as an example.
The rhythm of Double Jeu (or Made in France) is simpler than what the depth of this thread would make it seem like. But it's all good stuff as it happens a lot of the time.

PS I think it goes without saying how much I appreciate your knowledge and your humor.