rhythm type in Double Jeu by Stochelo Rosenberg

Hugh Huffaker

@NylonDave If you have the time, I would be very interested in watching a video of you playing the rhythm of Double Jeu to be able to hear your rhythmic deciphering of the tune. I hear the correlations in the videos that you posted, but it would be great to hear you play the different quavers and polyrhythms on Double Jeu specifically. Sometimes hearing only the rhythm guitar can be a huge help in unlocking the intricacies of "groove". Cheers.

NylonDave

Hugh Huffaker wrote: »

@NylonDave If you have the time, I would be very interested in watching a video of you playing the rhythm of Double Jeu to be able to hear your rhythmic deciphering of the tune. I hear the correlations in the videos that you posted, but it would be great to hear you play the different quavers and polyrhythms on Double Jeu specifically. Sometimes hearing only the rhythm guitar can be a huge help in unlocking the intricacies of "groove". Cheers.

Oh come now Hugh, surely it is obvious that I don't really know how to play guitar ?

And I don't own any plectrums.

Also I disagree with you premise completely. Without melody (or dance) you can hear any pattern of accented/muted notes in any time signature you please.

Would you like me to demonstrate that ?



Well I could I guess... but it still wouldn't get to the nub of the matter. Do you know what an iamb is ? I could really spend an awful lot of time explaining why the piece is in 3/4 and not six eight but we would have to take a trip through classical poetry and I just don't know if that would really be worth my while.

Also my understanding is that groove, in this context, and it's 'intricacies' are very much about the interaction between two or more people performing together in real time.


You see a midi file doesn't play music in much the same way that Steven Hawking doesn't sound like an accomplished actor or a black and white photograph doesn't show colour.

Let's look at it this way, imagine that someone is colour blind and they want you to prove the existence of colour by painting a Rembrandt. They would have to be a fool to accept the challenge.... right ?


PS, I have no idea what you mean by 'different quavers' but maybe you are talking about the fact that nine into two doesn't go ? I am still waiting for someone to pick up on the implications of that fact.

Buco

NylonDave wrote: »

I could really spend an awful lot of time explaining why the piece is in 3/4 and not six eight

Even so, this still applies, does it not?

dennis wrote: »

The basic idea isn't complicated, you strump 6 8th notes in a bar, everything is muted except the first and 4th stroke.

Bones wrote: »

1&2&3&
/ X X / X X

/ = sound
X = damp

Elí Saúl

I always thought of this type of rythm as 6/8 feel over 3/4.
This gypsy rhumbas in 3/4 seem to be always be played a bit differently depending on who's on the rythm guitar.
One thing I came across after studying Made in France and trying to take it's rythm to My favorite things is that it's really just a matter of taste, you can make your own pattern and play with accents as long as you keep an steady one and that goes along with the structure of the tune, otherwise it will feel off if it varies too much too quickly.

I think Denis did a great thing by documenting both Honor and Nousche about this, I'm curious if you covered this on Birèli's volumes, as he has a very interesting sense of time and is also a damn good rythmic player.

Anyway, I found a video of an Italian guy (I think) who had the idea aswell for my favorite things, it's well accomplished I believe. Maybe it can help to support my point

Buco

Or this

NylonDave

Buco wrote: »

The rhythm of Double Jeu (or Made in France) is simpler than what the depth of this thread would make it seem like.

I disagree.

Buco wrote: »

PS I think it goes without saying how much I appreciate your knowledge and your humor.

That goes both ways Buco.

Hugh Huffaker

NylonDave wrote: »

Let's look at it this way, imagine that someone is colour blind and they want you to prove the existence of colour by painting a Rembrandt. They would have to be a fool to accept the challenge.... right ?

The original post was made in the Gypsy Jazz 101 category in the forum. In this category, for the most part, we openly share knowledge with one another and it is not uncommon for people to post videos to help each other out. Trying to pick apart my lexicon seems counterproductive. If you don't want to do something, it's very easy to say "no thanks" instead of implying it is out of reach for everyone and a waste of your time.

I'm not asking anyone to paint a Rembrandt or "challenging" your knowledge/skill. I'm just asking you to play some easy chords over 40 bars to better understand why it is 3/4.

NylonDave

Hi Hugh, I am sorry I assumed that you were in fact doing exactly that, which is unfair since I do not think that we know each other. Any post that has a round of applause from Waldorf and Mortimer always makes me uneasy...

I honestly intend to do something, maybe a short video. I have been terribly busy with work so it won't be tomorrow as I will need to get my technique together.

I know I have said it before ,and I am not sure who I am inaccurately quoting but

'A tune is a tune is a tune and what makes it a tune is the tune'

So the rhythm part played in isolation doesn't really define the time signature of melody that it supports. I am genuinely worried that people seem to think that it does.

Maybe I could take a few bars and sing a few tunes with the same harmony over a section with the pattern that Dennis mentioned ? And for contrast maybe a few variations of accompaniment that could support the tune as well ?

Dennis is a VERYfine transcriber and an asset to the international gypsy jazz community, both professional and aspiring. He has pointed out several times recently that the principal difficulty in transcription (for him and other people with excellent pitch recall-amongst whom I do not count myself-) is in the accurate portrayal of rhythmic intent.

Here is a video of a colleague of his discussing that.



I really admire people who take the portrayal of an artist's intent in a score seriously for purely selfish reasons. It means I can enjoy reading the score either playing or listening to the recording. I have bought a load of transcriptions for music which are in the wrong time signature or had the bar lines in the wrong places. When I was a novice in those styles this lead to a HUGE amount of confusion.

Anyway if you really want I will do something.

At the very least you can laugh at my terrible singing and bloody awful singing voice and absolute failure to learn any kind of editorial skill with video.

D.
















'

dennis

Whether it's in 3/4 and 6/8 is something I can't comment on because of my lack of knowledge of latin styles. However, I can certainly say that Bireli, hono, stochelo and nousche are even less knowledgeable about the tradition!

They're just trying to do something that they think sounds good and sounds similar enough to something they've heard. When working with Nousche, he would just tell me he invented a lot of the rhythms he used, because he had to. There was a time in their career when the Rosenberg Trio were kind of a pop-jazz supergroup and were on big labels. The big labels requested super cheesy latin tunes, and Nousche had to invent all sorts of rhythms on the guitar.

I understand what Dave is saying because a lot of the melodies are sometimes in 3/4 , and when I write them out, I beam them as such, but the rhythm may have different accents (that of 6/8). However they seem to alternate between the two, however they feel like at any given moment. That always makes me debate on the best way to notate it, and then makes me realize that these oral tradition styles just aren't meant to be notated in a tradition western way.

Like I said in my first post, the most basic idea (and I stress the word basic) is just to strum 6 strokes in a bar, mute everything, but 1 and 4. That's the starting point as far as the above artists are concerned. After that they just do variations based on how they feel.

Bireli talks about it in my videos (as best as he can), and demonstrates the rhythm for Made in France. Again, there's no intellectualization whatsoever about any of this. They just do whatever seems appropriate to their ears.

That's why when I teach Gypsy Jazz Bossa Nova, I always tell people to never ever show it to a Brazilian musician! They'd probably laugh

dennis

One little side comment because I've never actually given it much thought: I just realized that when I record playalong tracks of these rhythms, I set the metronome on 3/4, so I guess I'm doing what Dave is suggesting.