The best tutorial videos to learn gypsy jazz?

PapsPier

I think a lot of people thought, based on your first message (what Buco called the thread-starter) that you were a beginner looking for video to learn gypsy jazz while you are actually more in the position of a business man doing a market study. And when it is the case, people want to know, rightly, that they are actually filling a market study form.

We dont criticize the fact that you posted in this section rather than that one (I dont think anybody pays attention to the sections anyway) but the fact that the content of the messages itself was not clear and 100%honest.

Jim Kaznosky

You're really not new to this forum.

TheHotClubofLickMyAxe

Hi Papspier, I have never pretended to be a beginner on the guitar or in the style. My level on the guitar has actually no importance or nothing to do when asking people how they learn the guitar, and what they recommend.

All I did was clicking on "New Discussion" and asked a very general question. It should be as simple as that. Question - answer. Sharing ideas. Growing together. Respect.

If this inquiry wasn't 100% honest like you suggested it, I would not post under my name.
What's your name by the way?

FYC I am not planning on selling any content at the moment. Just trying to understand what is missing in the humongous amount of informations available nowadays, and why many musicians are still not happy with the way they play after taking classes with some of the best musicians in the world.

TheHotClubofLickMyAxe

Hi Jim, you're kind of right. I had a first account on this forum that I used in 2012 to sell a guitar. I used the same account as well to post a few videos a year or two ago.

That being said, I have never really started or never been involved in any discussions on this forum before, and I am not aware if there are rules of what to post and where to post. In that sense, I am new to this forum.

I hope all is well with you.

ChrisMartin

Darius-Scheider wrote: »

............ Just trying to understand what is missing in the humongous amount of informations available nowadays, and why many musicians are still not happy with the way they play after taking classes with some of the best musicians in the world.

There are many reasons why some teaching methods, some teachers and even some very basic lessons don't get through to the student. For those who just want to study the Gypsy Jazz style as originated by Django (and yes, Baro, Matelot etc) there is already enough information out there, and many so-called experts who all have their own opinion on how is the only and correct way to play. Well good luck to them and anyone who wants to sign up for that, but even there I see so many irrelevant details that I suspect each one is just trying to find a new angle to make their course 'unique' and the 'best' just so they can do more business.
Here is my take on Django's style and it will probably upset a few 'experts' on here but.........
Where Django came from, his background, the early influences from his family and his busking years on the streets of Paris (before the fire) are all a matter of speculation and little is known or recorded. Michael Dregni did more research in his book and probably gets the closest to describing the beginnings, certainly the best reference since Delaunay.
Then there was the fire and how Django relearned with his mutilated hand, again the rest of us can't really imagine how to do that. Yes there are some who post videos of their versions of Django tunes deliberately played with the two fingers, but that is just a party trick to amuse the rest of us, the players concerned can always go back to using their left hand any old way; Django could not, he had no choice.
Who, among us, or the many online teachers, has walked in his shoes?
Thirdly, Django's famous discovery of jazz and his first hearing of Louis Armstrong had an unimaginable impact, again something we in the modern age can't really appreciate. This was back when recorded music itself was a fairly new medium, and putting that first hearing into its correct time and place, and the effect it had on someone who had been playing gypsy music mixed with the pop hits of the day is not something that the rest of us with our own history through the latter part of the 20th century and unlimited exposure to all types of recorded music can truly understand try as we might.
As a final note on Django just to confuse the issue, people’s interest generally divides it into two periods, roughly the acoustic swing dance band era with a few improv’s thrown in, and the electric post war bop influenced era which tends to display a bit less GYPSY and a bit more JAZZ.
Of course if one’s starting point is wanting learn the ‘style’ of one of the modern stars (another generation or two further removed from the source) – Stochelo, Angelo, Bireli etc – then again you can only go so far learning the basics and then, if you really insist, learn to copy or transcribe, note for note, but where is the future in that?
Again, unless you can truly walk in that person’s shoes, anything else will be just copying. If you are looking to find out how they did something or what the arpeggio was that worked so well in the second chorus etc, etc, fine, but unless you can actually work it out for yourself, there is little point in someone else showing you. By all means use Django, Stochelo or whoever as your influences but becoming a note for note copyist is always going to be a bit pointless.
So, if I am saying (controversially, I know) the various efforts to teach Django’s music are irrelevant and pointless, there are still some basic ground rules and techniques which apply to anyone trying to get started and these have been adequately covered many times already.
The Gypsy traditions are a required fundamental and although there was not necessarily even there any one strict way to play there were always common themes and tricks worth studying. But to me, the idea of teaching ‘Jazz’ is about as useful as a chocolate ashtray. Yes, again there are basic rules to the chord structures and how to harmonise over them but that should be the end of it, learning to truly improvise if the real meaning of the word is to be understood is surely not something that can be taught by any expert talking head on a pre-recorded video lesson, even if it does have close up views of both hands, and (God forbid) downloadable tabs. Once you have the basic understanding of the structure of the song, improvising should be about playing what your imagination does with that song or set of chords NOT some ‘widdly-widdly’ notes for notes sake onanism. That may be common enough in the big wide world of heavy metal, rock, Vai and Satriani type hero worship (I believe these days it is called ‘shredding’) but in the fairly small and insular world of Gypsy Jazz you will be spotted as a fake fairly quickly.
So, to sum up, do we need any more self-appointed expert teachers trying to fill a gap that does not exist? Sorry Darius, but that is a definite NO.
We could however use some advice from someone already known and respected who might care to explain a bit more about the roots of both Gypsy and Jazz music and who may be able to explain the philosophy behind it in a more eloquent way than I have in this post. Someone who could politely explain ‘no, I won’t show you how to do this or that’ but reinforce the idea that unless we can learn it for ourselves, no one teacher will have all the answers.

(Now I am putting on my tin hat and retiring to the safe bunker under the house in readiness for the ensuing storm).

Buco

@Darius-Scheider Well, now you got the conversation started.
What I meant by thread starter is what Pier said just earlier, the way you phrased your initial question in the opening of the thread sounds like a person looking for advice about where to look for online Gypsy jazz lessons. And that's exactly the answers you were getting until Paps posted. If he hadn't, you'd probably get a few more "check out so-and-so" responses and that would be the end of it (there are threads like that every month and I always wondered why people don't look for information that's already there, but still they sometimes reveal something new and interesting).
When I saw your post I was thinking to myself "this guy shreds Donna Lee at 270bpm (I had to double check that but I remember it being insanely fast), why is asking this?".
So, what I meant by my earlier post is I think what you replied to Pier should've been in your original post. But only for the sake of getting the conversation on the right track then and there, (I'm not writing this to criticize, it's the internet, I mean who cares after all).
Saying something like 'hey guys I'm thinking about making my own instructional videos, I'd like to try to find out and learn what worked and what didn't for you in the past" is completely fine to ask.

dennis

Chris Martin wrote: »

We could however use some advice from [a nerd] who might care to explain a bit more about the roots of both Gypsy and Jazz music and who may be able to explain the philosophy behind it in a more eloquent way than I have in this post. Someone who could politely explain ‘no, I won’t show you how to do this or that’ but reinforce the idea that unless we can learn it for ourselves, no one teacher will have all the answers.

That’s my favorite stuff to talk about!

http://denischang.com/index.php/2015/08/09/django-legacy-the-birth-of-gypsy-jazz/

http://denischang.com/index.php/2015/08/09/sinti-culture-language-and-the-origin-of-the-name-django/

http://denischang.com/index.php/2015/08/11/the-secrets-of-authentic-gypsy-jazz-rhythm/

http://denischang.com/index.php/2016/05/26/gypsy-jazz-guitar-technique-wassos-waltz/

http://denischang.com/index.php/2016/12/01/choosing-the-right-guitar-for-gypsy-jazz-part-1/

ChrisMartin

Thanks Denis. I had not seen all of those, but just reading the first one - Django Legacy etc - paints a good picture of how and why Django arrived at the style he did. I still think understanding the history, the roots, the traditions as well as jazz in general is far more important to learning this style than someone showing you their preferred chord inversions or arpeggios. Now I will get back to reading more of what Denis had linked above.

billyshakes

Darius-Scheider wrote: »

Just trying to understand what is missing in the humongous amount of informations available nowadays, and why many musicians are still not happy with the way they play after taking classes with some of the best musicians in the world.

I'll tell you the reason for this. It is simply that those musicians haven't put in the time and effort to get there. That, and we are always going to be dissatisfied with our performance until we reach the highest level. Even then, people are filled with doubt as to how well they sound. Shoot, look at Emmett Ray who would quake at the mere mention of Django being in the house! ;-)
I don't know if this goes to @Chris Martin 's point or not. I know I'm woefully inadequate at this style and at my instrument in general. But I enjoy what I do and playing music with the good and friendly people of this community. And every time I play with them, I slowly improve. I could purchase every lesson from every teacher and still not improve from them. There never will be a magic pill or lesson that will get me there without me really working to understand it. It is simply time and dedication to really internalize the music and how it speaks to me. In that case, the closest business plan I've seen to help that is @dennis Chang's home stay. Or those that visit and live with the various European players.

Buco

Exactly what Bill said. It's simple really. People are, knowingly or not, looking for a little bit of magic fairy dust when they look to buy the next great video lesson. The fastest car is only as fast as it's driver.
Or the other way around.
For example (jump to 1:15 if you don't wanna watch the whole thing):