Gypsy Jazz Amplification/Pickup System Overview

Passacaglia

Thank you, Martin, really informative post.

I suppose it's my usual problem - searching for a single, all-encompassing solution when there isn't one.

A friend encouraged me to hang on to my Stimer - saying, "you'll find a time when you'll need it." So, I have both an AT831B and a Stimer S51, and no amp. Whether to go tube or acoustic, depends on who I'm talking to. The best solution is the one I know is right, which is of course to try my piezo, mic and/or stimer in a multiplicity of amps, to see. The problem is I don't have ready access to a host of good amps locally, and live in a small area to boot, with some excellent - but very few - bands.

Add to this, as I've seen on the French Manouche site, (MItch) suggesting a mix of about 85% mic (in the specific example, the AT831B), with about 15% piezo, to finesse an optimum between good sound, and feedback resistance.

So now, there's a mag, a mic, and a piezo, and tube and solid state suggestions. It's almost as bad as "the best gypsy swing guitar for rhythm is ............." :?

MichaelHorowitz

As a few people mentioned already, the key to pickup/amp choices is based on how and where you will be using it. Very complicated rigs involving multiple sources, precise positioning, and highly selective EQ settings may get you the "Perfect" sound, but do you really want to go through all the time and trouble to lug all this gear and spend an hour setting up for every gig? If you're like most of us, a large percentage of your gigs are at bars, restaurants, private parties, etc where acoustics are sub-par, the audience is inattentive, and there's lots of crowd noise. Generally no one cares if you have the "perfect acoustic" sound or not at these sorts of gigs, and in fact magnetic pickups have a big advantage as the natural compression allows you to be more easily heard when there's a din of crowd noise. The dynamic range of a mic actually makes your soft passages inaudible and your loud playing almost painful!

If you're like me, you will often be showing up at gigs 10 min before downbeat. I run in the door, plug my Peche a la Mouche into whatever is there (PA, tube amp, acoustic amp,) turn up the volume, and go. It always sounds good, never feeds back, and takes 1 min to setup.

If I'm doing a concert with a PA, soundman, and an attentive audience then I will use a mic. But that's an ideal situation.

Passacaglia

Thanks, Michael. Sounds like I got itchy getting the 831B.

Part of my problem also is that the Stimer bottoms out on the high E, when placing at the top of the soundhole. I've thought of turning it around, but then the line running to the volume control is in my way. Haven't tried placing it lower, towards the bridge, because I've heard the already trebly tendency is worsened here. I don't have any amp yet to play with all this stuff, so it's all conjecture.

martin b

Michael hits the nail squarely on the head there. And of course the guy with the super-complex rig who takes an hour to set up is going to have to eq differently for each room. And then the room fills with people, and the game's up. Still, it works for some people.
Personally, I've long abandoned the "like my guitar, only louder" ideal of amplifying acoustic instruments. My priority list now is: 1 - I want it to respond like it does acoustically; 2 - I don't want it to piss me off ( too boomy, shrill, honky, brittle, feeding back etc.); 3 - hopefully it sounds quite nice.
The audience generally only notice if you're constantly feeding back, fiddling with knobs, or getting cross.
Passacaglia, you've got some great pickups there, and in my view you need a good small acoustic amp like an AER or some such so you can work out in your own time what they all do. An amp like that will get you through 90% of practical gigging situations, and you'll soon get a grasp of things. A Baggs PADI preamp or similar is very handy also. You can meanwhile look out for a small low wattage vintage style tube amp. A number of companies make them today but I would look out for an old Valco, Silvertone, Gibson etc. They can be had quite cheap and will totally nail that late Django sound. Obviously a vintage Fender or boutique amp will be great, but a lot more expensive.
As for your friend who told you to keep the Stimer, I of course agree. However, if it chokes out on your guitar, you could move it on in favour of a lower profile model. I believe the Krivo is the slimmest, but also lower is the Miller, from Switzerland, which is what I use. Highly recommended by the way, and Rainer, who makes them, is a gentleman.

Passacaglia

Thank you, Martin, and Michael, of course - really helpful. I'm looking at both the AER C60 and the Schertler David, "Classic." I passed up on a Fender 5W, 600 Champ re-issue, probably a mistake, but there you go. I'm very glad to have a Stimer and hope to find a way to make it work with my DG-300.

The real deal comes in about 6 mos., though, when I take possession of a new Rodrigo Shopis...!

Thank you again, great info.

Paul

Stringswinger

I sold my AER Compact 60. Very convenient size and weight, but soundwise it is very "boxy". These days I use a fender Princeton reissue (or one of my vintage Princetons), with a 50 Watt Weber speaker when gigging with a Gypsy guitar. With my Dupont I use a bigtone. With My Favino, a Miller magnetic Stimer copy with balanced magnets. Both sound great for the real world gigs that Michael mentioned. I do 125-150 paid gigs a year.

Easy set up, great tone and easy to make a great sounding gig. What more could you want? I have a clip on mike. It is lousy for real world gigs.

Cheers,

Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com

Passacaglia

At DIJ, last summer, somewhere, in some context, I heard of Kamlo Barré's reliance on a Stimer, regardless of venue - a sort of constant companion, he knows it, and does not have to monkey around or rely on a sound engineer to finesse his setup. I understand that - I understand that a musician would want to concentrate on what he or she is doing, making music, rather than on pre-amp eq levels, worry over feedback, and what not.

That said, I have to say, I was disappointed in the sound I heard, in the audience, coming from Kamlo's playing. Nothing to do with his playing - I absolutely love and admire Kamlo's artistry, whether playing rhythm or lead (and admire his approach - "they're both the same thing"). It just sounds electric, distorted, and for me, anyway, it got in between my appreciation of what he was doing musically, and what I was hearing; memory of the set is that this tone stood out, for me, in an unpleasant way.

I played my recently-arrived 831B on my friend's fender last night. We cranked it pretty loud, and so long as I was facing away from the amp, no feedback issue. I loved the sound - just so much truer on both lead and rhythm. It was a bit hot on the treble end, so we killed the treble level, and it sounded great.

I know his luthier studio isn't a bar gig, but I also know how much that kind of sound feels better to play, for me, than the distorted sound I get from the mag. (my friend, a non-gjer, prefers the Stimer sound). So I think this is guiding my thought, going forward.

I'm thinking of Klaatu's success with an Ischell for situations needing some feedback resistance, and the 831B when luck would allow a pure mic sound. I don't think I'll ever be able to master blending channels, so a single channel pre-amp, like the Baggs Para DI; and as a rhythm player, where sheer volume isn't so important, the Schertler David Classic.

Passacaglia

Speaking of the Ischell - can anyone tell me, is that an Ischell that Samy Daussat is using in the DVD, Tchavolo, Live in Paris?

pinkgary

The problem with the clip-on, condenser mics, in a lively bar situation, isn't just feedback, but the mic picks up all the loud chatter & amplifies that too. Especially those cramped, "Can you set up in that corner there, where all those people are drinking and shouting", type situations.

I use a ATM350 mic, blended with the pickup in my guitar (can't seem to find out what pickup it is, but it's not a bigtone or schatten), but i always take a Krivo stickon humbucker for when i need to change the mic for the mag, which is about 60% of gigs.

Passacaglia

Yeah, thanks, Pinkgary, I noticed that too, when I was just trying it out on my friend's Fender. I'm just not really a fan of the mag pickup sound, so when budget permits, I'd like to try the Ischell.