Would Joscho be considered a legend?

opus20000 · March 2023

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/113872#Comment_113872

Like I wrote, having taught guitar for over 25 years, most who criticize Joscho are nowhere near his level of playing!!!! Mostly, they're bitter boomers, equivalent to "I only play with tone (only tube amps) and feel man" in rock guitar, who buy the most expensive guitars, yet haven't amounted to anything musically, and can't get past the pentatonic scale.

I've seen it year in and out these "I only play with feeling" fools, who can't play twinkle twinkle little star, yet are the worlds best "critic". Your other examples, don't compare, as it's a whole different scenario! Especially in GJ as it's somewhat an "avant-garde" genre. To your "point", you would not have someone enter a Master Chef competition, without any culinary experience (or who's cooking always makes everyone regurgitate), or enter a film festival, without knowing how to operate a camera, or have any directing skills, or have a theology debate with someone who never read the Bible etc......etc.......

Most of the time, there's a certain level of jealousy in musicians who'll never get to a certain level; but will make sure would put others down. Seen that at conservatories/music schools for years as I've been through them! You think politics of Fox News-CNN are bad, try music colleges! I've seen some on full scholarships, hailed by faculty as the next guitar god one day, become a "can't paly out of a wet paper bag" the next.

Yes, opinions are like a-holes, but in some cases you need a foundation or some basic skills in a filed to make them.

Buco · March 2023

@EmilBirk well, what you wrote says you are still going about it the right way. The reason I said that is because when people carry that thinking, it results in settling for less. Which is totally fine if you're doing it by choice and simply don't aspire to reach the highest level of playing you possibly can. Oftentimes though, it acts as a weight that people don't even approach let alone try to lift therefore not coming nowhere close to reaching or exceeding their personal potential. In my own experience once I said to hell with it, I'm going for it all the way and removed that from my own thinking I decided to learn and practice some licks and phrases that sounded impossible before. It took a lot of beating my head against the wall. It felt more like my mind was refusing to do it rather than my fingers. Then one day I kinda blew my own mind when I played one of them along with Remi Harris. I couldn't believe it. Well then, the excitement was short lived because I realized looping and playing it over and over was long ways away from being able to play it on the fly during a jam or a band practice or a live gig. Maybe years away, and that's ok, I carry on and keep chipping away. But it would've never happened had I not changed my attitude.

And Joscho may not be a musical legend...yet...but he is a total legend when it comes to being humble about his own abilities.

Bones · March 2023

A whole lot of this thread sounds like the proverbial sour grapes.

Scoredog · March 2023

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/113874#Comment_113874

Legends often spawn new legends. The history of music is a virtual chain of legends spawning legends. Mozart to Beethoven to Brahms to Stravinsky…Hendrix to Stevie Ray and on and on. The legend stops with Django may be your own reality but others including myself don’t feel that way. Music growth has always been fluid and it will continue to be.

scot · April 2023

I don't get a lot of this thread. In particular I don't get the bitter boomer business. I'm as "boomer" as it gets (b1954) and have played music with other boomers since I was a teenager and with people of all ages as they came along over the years. I don't remember playing with anyone who did not know his limitations or was bitter about them. In fact, any bitterness and jealousy I have seen is from players at the top of the game who are competing for limited gigs.

For most of us, it does not take but a couple of years to figure out just how much you're going to be able to do, musically speaking. I knew from the start that I would never be able to solo in this style - even now, after all this time, I can barely play a basic fiddle tune on a guitar with a flatpick. So I learned how to play rhythm which I was able to learn without any problems. In my experience and across genres, most people are modest about their playing.

Legends? Since the 40s, Django and Stephane's recordings never went out of print, and guitarists of importance, in all sorts of styles, have claimed Django as an influence. Even in mainstream jazz, those guys are recognized as important figures in the history. That's legendary.

I kind of understand the appeal of Jimmy Rosenberg or Joscho, but if you play them for people outside this little sphere, even other guitarists, what you get is, "Man that guy can really play, but WTF?" I played GJ recordings of all kinds for musicians of all kinds over the years. What people liked best was Fapy/Bamboula, Alma Sinti, Pearl Django, Mandino Reinhardt. Most liked Tchan-Tchou and HCSF/Mehling. What they generally did not like was Jimmy R and Boulou Ferre - wah, my favorite!

Will any of our current generation of musicians ever achieve global legendary status? Who can say? But I think guitarists like Stephane Wrembel, Antoine Boyer, John Jorgenson and others with wide appeal outside the cult have the best chance...

voutoreenie · April 2023

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/113878#Comment_113878

Let me ask you this -- within our genre, can you name another player who changed the course of music and pop culture aside from Django? Because much like Django, that's precisely what each composer and music artist you've cited accomplished as contemporaneous to the time period in which they lived, which is why history will continue remembering them after we're gone. That's the larger point I'm making and as my first paragraph acknowledges, we already have many legendary figures within the genre who have advanced the style. Unfortunately, we're also touching on the semantics of terms like "legend" that can be very subjective in interpretation so I'll certainly acknowledge that you and I may have large differences in how we define the terminology. On that note though, I will leave you with definitions of "legend" straight from google as some food for thought:

a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated. "the legend of King Arthur"
an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field. "the man was a living legend"

Again, does any figure within the genre come close to meeting such criteria aside from Django?

voutoreenie · April 2023

Also, Scot's basically making the same argument I am, albeit far more eloquently and well-stated than I'm capable of lol

Scoredog · April 2023

"Legend" is subjective, there are plenty of Gypsy Jazz players who have added to the music's vocabulary who gypsy Jazzer's would call a legend, the OP's original definition. Django while know amongst many guitarist is still unknown among a vast amount of the population. They of course cannot call him a "Legend" since they don't know who he was.

voutoreenie · April 2023

That's very fair and I certainly did deviate from the OP's criteria of "legend" within the community, mea culpa. And since that's apparently the sole criteria for this discussion, Joscho is absolutely a legend within the genre even if a faction of other players don't want to admit it.

I do disagree with your assertion though that Django isn't a music legend because the public at large doesn't know who he is - same could be said for (arguably) "more known" artists Coltrane, Monk, Basie, etc. because fact is, Jazz hasn't really been contemporary music since the 60s/70s. That said, every single text you read about the history of Jazz is going to mention Django and for obvious reasons, which makes him a "Jazz legend" vs. being a sub-genre legend like every other player in the style, legendary or not.

littlemark · April 2023

The op's question is not a very meaningful question. "Would Joscho be considered a legend?" If the op considers him one, then yes. If another person agrees, then yes.

As mentioned before, legend needs to be defined to make it a meaningful question. There have been a few definitions given. Semantically speaking a better question would be "does anyone else think Joscho is a legend?" And then define legend.

One thing I've been thinking, is many professional musicians emulate and/or are influenced by Django. I don't think many pros would consider Joscho an influence and try to emulate him. Especially outside this subgenre of jazz. Lots of people know how to play Wonderwall. Does that make Liam/Noel legends? I wouldn't say so.

Many people try to emulate Hendrix, Van Halen, Armstrong, Parker etc . On different instruments even!

Another signifier might be if you can say just their last name and be understood who you mean. See the above paragraph, plus Django.

Based on what he's done so far, I doubt anyone will care much about his playing 50 years from now.

Django used licks, played fast, was showy and was obviously technically impressive. But more importantly he was an artist. He was extremely expressive. His sense of timing and note choices are exceptional. He also made mistakes and played at the edge of his abilities. My impression of Joscho is that he would be embarrassed by mistakes and practises to prevent them.

I would put Joscho and Robin Nolan in the same category. Not in technical ability, (no doubt Robin would agree), but in their ability to entertain people outside of the genre. I think they both do this by bringing in more popular and contemporary music into their playing. Like the Beatles, Jimi, ac/dc etc. I see them both as entertainers at heart, or at least in practice. I do not begrudge them this. They are making a living doing what they do.

They are also both "gateway" artist that can and do bring new people into the genre. Which is also important for our beloved music to survive.

I guess I might be lucky in that my music teacher in highschool hipped me to Django before I heard anyone else in the genre.