Would Joscho be considered a legend?

littlemark · April 2023

I understand the point about a certain type of guitar player being focused on tone. I am one of those players. Though not a boomer, or a dentist. :)

Tone is very important to me. If you play all the right notes, but its run through a chorus and fuzz pedal, I cannot suffer that.

If you have a great sound, you can play one note all night with rhythm and I'll be happy.

Now for my opinion of Joscho's playing. Very technical, as everyone has stated. No one is criticizing his ability to play. Technically he can play circles around most anyone. I'm sure he could play any thing Django did. But, definitely not with his sense of time and feeling.

Jimmy Rosenberg and Joscho can play very fast. (Joscho I think it's MUCH cleaner. ) But I can not listen to them for very long. One or maybe two songs. The same is for Van Halen or Malmsteen. Shredding is very impressive and incredible boring to listen to.

No sour grapes. I also prefer Djangos earlier recordings. On average they were slower.

If I may quote the philosopher Dr. Ian Malcolm:

"...your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

The above quote will also work in response to hearing Gypsy Jazz versions of Wonderwall, Hey Joe, Tainted Love, Thunderstruck etc.

EmilBirk · April 2023

I think with what a few people have said I would agree with however, the theme I’m getting is that Joscho plays essentially fast for the sake of playing fast which I don’t believe to be the case. I don’t want to criticise other players as they’re all still miles better than myself, but Jimmy rosenberg doesn’t have the ability to play slow melodic lines where as there are several recordings of Joscho playing slower tunes and very melodic (his blue bossa recording with Peter autschbach is a great example).

I’ve played to my family Joscho and jimmys music and my parents were blown away by joschos playing and they really enjoy it ( my dad actually listens to him regularly now) where as they said Jimmy rosenberg is impressive but didn’t say much more than that. I guess you also have to bare in mind that Jimmy rosenberg peaked his career very early on and in my opinion hasn’t been the same player as he once was.

In terms of the django comparisons, I do agree that actually django isn’t a household name outside of the world of guitar and even then when I speak to other jazz players ( bepop) they usually pull a strange face when I say I’m into the music of django reinhardt. However, that being said I believe that django revolutionised guitar playing at the time (alongside Charlie Christian) and within this sub genre of jazz he again would sit on the greatest of all time category.

Maybe I should give an example outside of music with football(soccer) many people see players such as pele or Maradona as the greatest footballers of all time however when you look statistically or technically the players of today are much better ( Ronaldo, Messi, Haaland, Mbappe, neymar etc). I also say to friends about Thierry Henry that I believe he is best striker the premier league has ever seen not because of his statistics but because his playing was almost like magic, it was unbelievable to watch where as Haaland for example doesn’t have this in his playing apart from the goals he scores in terms of numbers.

Of course Django’s playing is unbelievable, the fact that he could play fast with just two fingers is amazing and how he was so precise with what he played is great. But at the same time I believe Joscho’s playing is unbelievable, I’ve never seen someone play so fast and so clean. Despite what some people are saying he is also playing coherent lines at this speed as well. I think the issue that has become apparent to me is that many people have judged Joscho on his playing from 10 years ago where he depended mostly on his technical ability to impress and are acting as if someone could not musically develop over the space of ten years. Django for example relied heavily in the beginning on his ability to impress. I would say he only became musically impressive until the 40s. (This is my opinion) but in the 30s django played mostly cheesy lines and copy and paste licks for most of his work.

flaco · April 2023

Many years ago I took a jazz appreciation class in college, and when the professor skipped past Django I called him out on it. In fact, he barely acknowledged ANY guitar-based jazz. We are a niche within a niche within a niche!

littlemark · April 2023

You need to define what you mean by legend.

And you should also make a habit of capitalizing the names of legends. I think you missed capitalizing Joscho once. I wonder what Freud would have to say about that. 😎

Why won't you let people not like Joscho? You seem not to think your oppinion is not worthy but won't accept others' oppinions. "Obviously my ears aren’t great so potentially Joscho is just recycling licks". But you think "in the 30s django played mostly cheesy lines and copy and paste licks for most of his work."

I purposely did not respond to this thread because I do not like being publicly critical of artist. But you don't seem to be able to accept why someone doesn't like his playing. If I heard his playing ten years ago and didn't like it, why should I waste my time and effort re-evaluating new stuff. Which I do and am continually annoyed with myself for wasting my time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gG5wOeMFqE So cheesy. There are at least two flubbed notes in this recording. Do it again buddy! Show some pride in your work.

https://youtu.be/-jzp-Fy9gMs?t=128 This is not cheesy? Appropriating reggae? I can't stand listening to an upright

bass with steel strings. (not Joscho but it matters for the whole effect) Look at that smarmy self satisfied smirk.

At 2:18 the octaves sound like cheesy polite Wes licks. Something that should be played on a electric.

https://youtu.be/-jzp-Fy9gMs?t=206 kewl, you can quote Bach in a minor piece, that has definitely never been done

before by Joscho. And look at his face it looks really hard to play. Oh and don't forget James Bond. Clever. I'm not going to keep going. We got it you can quote things. One! in a tune live in front of an audience will be mildly amusing for a second. This whole piece is cliche after cliche. Released 9 months ago, not ten years ago.

https://youtu.be/-jzp-Fy9gMs?t=349 Using pinch harmonics on an accoustic? It doesn't sound particularly good. He can't help himself from showing off all the techniques he knows. Whether they sound good or not. Whether it is approriate in the piece or not.

Maybe I am being unfair in that this isn't really even a Gypsy Jazz piece. Which is one of the points I made earlier. I don't like or appreciate the influences he brings to the genre.

Great your parents like his playing. probably because of the above point. I don't like Jimmy Rosenbergs playing either. I don't consider him a legend. He was a child prodigy, that had an unfortunate fall from grace. He is trying to get back into it and progress once more.

"However, that being said I believe that django revolutionised guitar playing at the time (alongside Charlie Christian) and within this sub genre of jazz he again would sit on the greatest of all time category." How generous of you to say Django is in the greatest of all time category.

In response to your sport analogy, Pele and Maradona were leagues above those around them. They stood out compared to everyone. Messi et al. are not leagues above their peers. But everyone in sport has progressed. If Pele and Maradona played today they might not stand out either. However, they are the Giants whose shoulders Messi et al. stand on.

Django was leagues better than his guitar peers (obvious exceptions Charlie Christian, Eddie Lang, Oscar Aleman). Django is the Giant who's shoulds Fappy and Stochello and Bireli stand on. etc. Once something has been done it is easier to repeat. The idea is already out there to be copied and expanded on.

I could have written John Cage's 4'33. But I didn't. It's easy to come up with Marcel DuChamps "le Pissoire" now. Or Jackson Pollocks drip technique.

" Joscho’s playing is unbelievable, I’ve never seen someone play so fast and so clean." So what? My onion cutting is also very fast and clean and even. But when I put them in a pot with burnt cheese and soggy cake it doesn't make for a very good eating.

"Despite what some people are saying he is also playing coherent lines at this speed as well." I don't remember anyone saying what he plays isn't coherent. I remember reading it isn't improvised (not a big deal). But more importantly to me what he played is shoehorned in to show off.

"I would say [Django] only became musically impressive until the 40s." What impresses you? Django started playing faster in the 40s. He had been to the USA and had some Bebop influence creep in and less Armstrong. Is that impressive?

littlemark · April 2023

This video has a number of things that leave a bad taste in my mouth.

https://youtu.be/coT-nfgysRY?t=94 I don't know what he is thinking or feeling but it looks like he is seeking praise and attension from Bireli, who is not looking at what Joscho is doing. Throughout the whole performance really.

https://youtu.be/coT-nfgysRY?t=140 This lick is the worst. Near the end his facial reaction implies he is surprised that he actual nailed the lick. Or impressed with his own playing. This is completely ingenuous. I have seen other performances of him doing this lick with the same raised eyebrows. It is a rehearsed lick and facial performance. It's a schtick. Lame and cheesy. Audiences might laugh and find it amusing the first time. It reeks of needing praise from Bireli in this context.

Even better though. He made two mistakes in lick. Making his reaction even less genuine.

However! The fact that he published the video despite the mistakes is a good counter argument against what I said earlier about Joscho being afriad to make mistakes.

In general Joscho's performances feel over rehearsed and too slick to be interesting to me. I don't want to go see a Beyonce choreographed performance either.

littlemark · April 2023

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/113888#Comment_113888

Same in my jazz history course. But you can only realistically cover so much ground in one course. Europeans don't figure highly in jazz history, being an American musical artform.

The prof focused on the artists,instruments and performances that changed the genre. IE piano trumpet and sax. In that order.

Joplin, Johnson, Whaler, Armstrong, Bechet, Hawkins, Ellington, Basie, Gillespie/Parker/Davis, Rollins/Coltrane, Brubeck, Coleman. If I recall from twenty years ago.

I'm in Canada, so no surprise our piano playing Prof also put Oscar Peterson in. Being a bass player at the time, I was pleased he mentioned Jimmy Blanton taking the first recorded upright solo.

Also note, the fact that I didn't have to use any first names in that list and you likely know who I am referring to might arguably make them legends. Maybe not Brubeck lol.

EmilBirk · April 2023

I don’t think other people are wrong, what I was trying to state is that actually what people are saying was incorrect to joschos more recent work. I was actually putting a point across in a more objective fashion ie the technique that joscho posses is unmatched by any other player in this genre.

I think I did later say what I meant by legend as well, I think people are getting confused with what I exactly meant originally. What I mean is that when people are talking about the greats of this genre how come people state lots of names yet Joscho Stephan is never brought up. I think your points are more towards his character rather than his actual playing. In reality we could pick apart django recordings because the quality aren’t great either.

I think a better wording I should have used how come Joscho isn’t considered one of the greats of this genre?

But I also strongly disagree with standing one a legends shoulder statement. If that’s the case no one in bepop will ever surpass Charlie Parker. Well, John Coltrane was a far superior player technically speaking and musically speaking. Also, Haaland and Mbappe are on course to obliterate any record previously set by the previous generation of players.

My responses weren’t out of spite to another persons opinion, I respect that Joscho may not be everyone’s cup of tea that’s completely fine with me. But to insist that Joscho’s lines are rehearsed to me is a ridiculous point to make, of course people have fall back lines, I think most people in jazz have their go to lines that they play. Django is included in this.

If I’m being honest I didn’t think it would be such a controversial opinion to hold I thought people would just say yeah he’s a monster player but might not quite be at that level yet or so on.

. I also didn’t mean with the django in the 40s that he was playing fast really I was more thinking along the lines of his musicality developed a lot more during this time. A good example is the recording of my melancholy baby I believe 1947 Rome recordings. It’s not that it’s fast but it is very melodic and harmonically aware. Again it is my own opinion that I feel as though a lot of djangos earlier recordings were ‘cheesy’.

Again I didn’t realise these opinions were so controversial and I apologise if made anyone upset about it. Ironically, I have listened to a few of Joschos earlier recordings too from around 10 years ago and I agree with what other people are saying it was very much a case of playing fast for the sake of playing fast however still impressive.

EmilBirk · April 2023

I would also like to point out that on that bireli recording with Joscho playing Hungaria, he makes a mistake playing a 16th note lick at a tempo that I’m guessing is over 200bpm. Think about that and he attempts is twice in the recording one with a mistake and one without, he played that chromatic lick cleanly. Maybe I’m defensive as I’m a massive Joscho fan ( I listen to most of his music when it comes out, I currently use his website to learn alongside trying my best to transcribe things for myself, follow him on instagram and even Spotify lol). My points aren’t out of spite to django or anyone else it’s more of a well Django was the same. To me gypsy jazz is about being flamboyant, in a way showing off, and impressing an audience. In contrast to what many people who play jazz think I believe we should aim to impress an audience not another musician, I find that so many players will play ideas like modal ideas or maybe something that is out there rhythmically. I personally don’t think that a member of the public would enjoy this sort of stuff and only really a musician can appreciate it. I want to reference my parents again but I remember when I first got into jazz and my mum said to me I don’t like jazz because it just sounds like random notes to me ( meme worthy I know) but when I showed her some gypsy jazz she liked it and I’m guessing it’s because of the showmanship and the simple melodies. Just wanted to say this because I think I’m being misinterpreted a little bit or maybe I’m not expressing myself correctly but my comments are because of my love for joschos music and not because I think other players are lesser, I would easily say the same stuff about bireli, django, stochello, Jimmy, fapy, angelo honestly the list goes on

littlemark · April 2023

Ahhh. This makes sense now. I am guessing you are newish to the style. Was he the gateway artist for you? Did he get you into the genre? You are clearly inspired by him. That's great! Whatever keeps you playing is good. Keep it up! But you drank the Kool aid do to speak. You have blind spot. Giving money to someone makes it hard to be objective about them.

"I think a better wording I should have used how come Joscho isn’t considered one of the greats of this genre?" Yes, a way better and clearer question.

"...what I was trying to state is that actually what people are saying was incorrect to joschos more recent work."

The two songs I posted are hopefully recent enough to qualify.

"I was actually putting a point across in a more objective fashion..." I am making the assumption you are new to Gypsy Jazz; it is very hard to be objective if you don't know the history or context.

"In reality we could pick apart django recordings because the quality aren’t great either." What quality? The recording technology? Or his playing? I would think Joscho has quite the advantage in having his own studio and and recording equipment. Nevermind the costs and disparate recording environment, industry and philosophy. In the 30s artists were often payed by the song.

"But I also strongly disagree with standing one a legends shoulder statement." I think you misunderstand what I was saying. Maybe because I don't really know much about sports. Standing on the shoulders of giants is how advancements in any field work. Hawkins stands on Einstein who stands on Newton who stands on Archimedes or Pythagoras etc. Django stood on the shoulders of Armstrong who was on Buddy Bolden. Who was Buddy on? I don't know. Elon Musk stands on Ford.

"I think your points are more towards his character rather than his actual playing." I didn't mention his character in reference to the rattlesnake reggae performance. But unfortunately, audiences often hear with their eyes.

The reason I put the Hungaria performance in a separate post was because it didn't focus on his playing. I was trying to separate the two ideas somewhat.

"But to insist that Joscho’s lines are rehearsed to me is a ridiculous point..." Improvisation is a large part of Jazz and is elevated in importance compared to other genres like classical, pop or rock.

"...of course people have fall back lines, I think most people in jazz have their go to lines that they play. Django is included in this." Of course you are correct. EVERYONE has a bank of licks. Parker, Coltrane, Armstrong. Django and Gypsy Jazz more generally is often criticized by straight ahead jazzers by the over use and reliance of licks. Joscho I think is particularly reliant on this. Hence why I am not interested in his music as it doesn't feel spontaneous to me. I can see through what he is playing to what he is thinking.

In Jazz, licks are supposed to be used as a mental pause/place holder in-between musical ideas. In the performance of Rattlesnake Reggae it appears to be cliche linked to cliche. I was playing it for my GF and paused after the James Bond quote, and I said guess what is next. "Ugh, I don't know! The pink panther? " So predictable my non musician GF guessed what he was going to do next.

I don't think it is controversial. As you said he is not mentioned often on the board. "when people are talking about the greats of this genre how come people state lots of names yet Joscho Stephan is never brought up". In art, having great technique is not AS important as what you do with it.

Another thing that marks Django important compared to some others in the genre are his compositions. He wrote a number of beautiful pieces. And some fun ones. And some heads that are just there to start a song (Daphne, minor swing). I'm not going to compare.

littlemark · April 2023

"I would also like to point out that on that bireli recording with Joscho playing Hungaria, he makes a mistake playing a 16th note lick at a tempo that I’m guessing is over 200bpm. Think about that and he attempts is twice in the recording one with a mistake and one without, he played that chromatic lick cleanly."

I don't know what you are trying to say.

"To me gypsy jazz is about being flamboyant, in a way showing off, and impressing an audience." 😰

"In contrast to what many people who play jazz think I believe we should aim to impress an audience" 😞 why do you want to be impressed? This really makes me sad. I don't listen to music to be impressed.

"Django was the same" 😳 Joscho is definitely NOT the same as Django. If for only one reason, Django did it first.

"find that so many players will play ideas like modal ideas or maybe something that is out there rhythmically. " how often do you hear modal jazz in this genre? Rarely I hope! Joscho frequently plays odd rhythmic patterns with chords. Annoyingly frequent. So does Bireli IMO.

"I personally don’t think that a member of the public would enjoy this sort of stuff and only really a musician can appreciate it. " I mean, arguably why Jazz is out of favour with the public is because it ceased to be dance music in the 40s and became more art music.

But, I would hazard a guess that everyone on this board is a musician thus are more impressed and interested with interesting ideas from the other greats. What makes them great compared to say me, is how well they incorporate interesting ideas.

"...my mum said to me I don’t like jazz because it just sounds like random notes to me..." I don't know your mum but that is likely her response because she is uninitiated. She might only hear out of tune screaming in Chinese opera. She might see just a canvas painted white. Art is often challenging and takes time to understand and appreciate it.

"I showed her some gypsy jazz she liked it and I’m guessing it’s because of the showmanship and the simple melodies." Yes, absolutely. Gypsy Jazz is generally more palatable to the uninitiated than any Jazz post Bebop.

I think Joscho strays too far from Gypsy Jazz. Wonderwall and On Broadway are not part of the repertoire. Like Robin Nolan, he brings in too many other influences. So much, that he is no longer playing in the same genre of music. Audiences seem to like it. That's good for him.

I strongly suspect, because of these artistic choices he is not a favourite on this board.