Django and music theory

Charles Meadows · November 2015

Christiaan, great post. And yes your lessons literally have changed my approach to practice completely.

I know you have talked with Tcha - and you certainly know that his approach is different from yours. Do you think that maybe Tcha is a bit of a musical eccentric in that pitch recognition and improvising just come naturally to him?

Seems like this discussion centers on how much of this is nature versus nurture so to speak!

Hemert · November 2015

Tcha is a great musician and a good friend and when we get together and jam we don't stop, we just go till one of us drops!

Tcha has a different approach and it obviously works but I'm quite convinced it's the longer route to take. Though don't think for a second Tcha doesn't know any music theory because he knows all!

I love Tcha, one of the nicest people I've ever met and I have a neverending admiration for him. We just disagree on a couple of issues when it comes to practicing!

Charles Meadows · November 2015

Do you think maybe his different approach reflects the fact that certain things come very naturally to him?

dennis · November 2015

holy cow, this thread is becoming way way more complicated than it started. I thought the question was very simple, and it was answered a bunch of times directly.

As for me Charles, I'm not talented at all. All I did was throw away all my books and sheet music at the age of 18 or so, and worked purely by ear. I only use sheet music when learning classical music. Even then, because of my DC Music School, I have not really had time to practice guitar for the past few years, and it shows...

As always, I have many discussions about this with Christiaan, but it comes down to semantics.. Him working out the licks by ear IS ear training. I was there, the first time Tcha and Christiaan talked about it. Tcha says the same thing, Christiaan's idea of ear training is the same idea Tcha and I (and anyone else) has about ear training...

At any rate, to me it boils down to one's sense of observation, that's the ultimate secret. The ability to hear fine details.

I have met people who've learned note for note solos but they still haven't developed the ear that christiaan mentions.. learning the vocabulary is not enough, you have to internalize it, which is where my idea of ear training kicks in (and that of tcha's oor bireli's or any hard core improviser, and i'm not putting myself in the same league). You have to listen very carefully to the vocabularly that you are learning, i could write an entire chapter about this, but i'll just say that it involves way more than just memorizing licks, you have to know how to internalize them. And having directly taught well over 100 people (privately, workshops, etc...) I have met people who have memorized tons of licks and solos but still haven't developed the ears, because they never tried to actually listen and pay attention to the stuff they were learning. THat's the key secret

woodamand · November 2015

No simple questions, no simple answers I guess. Interesting discussion though......

NylonDave · November 2015

It is great to see that there is actually a lot of agreement happening.

I hope that it is clear to everyone that I have nothing but admiration for anyone who gets to grips with this or indeed any other music.

And I truly appreciate the efforts that both Dennis and Christian and others have made to help those who cant leap tall buildings in a single bound build ladders for ourselves.

I also think that when we look for short simple answers semantics become a huge issue because one mans version of what comprises say 'education' might be very different from anothers. In some respects Django is uneducated but I don't think of him that way. So when I say he is highly educated and someone disagrees and we are both talking about the same Django and have listened to the same music and read the same histories and appreciate the music in the same proportion simple answers are not helping.

And that is why these questions get complicated and lots of people who actually have a very similar understanding of matters can get the impression that they are in disagreement.

Now that might be confusing for people involved,but I don't worry too much about that.

What I worry about is that other people maybe closer to the start of their journey accept one of the very very simple answers, whether it is either all the books or to never buy a book, and that that acceptance will leads to improvement but instead to stagnation. And I would count myself among that group. I would count most people in that group as Dennis is pointing out.

I know guys that really want to play like Django a lot and when I listen to them solo I get the impression that they have very clear musical ideas they are trying to express. But the haven't done the work to find fingerings that match the sound in their heads and they are constantly struggling. And sometimes they avoid doing the work to solve this because they imagine that Django didn't have to and that they shouldn't. And I also know guys who have learned a lick or scale and the associated fingering and will play it over a chord in contexts where it will not fit and don't notice it isn't working because the book told them it was right and they are allowing that to overrule their ears.

But didn't Django spend a whole year replanning his left hand approach and in doing so changed both his harmonic vocabulary and his melodic language and ornament style and frequency of shifting and use of open strings also his right hand which had to lead a left that was totally changed and...... everything else to suit that which most readily and musically exploited that revolutionary technique ? (oops, that's along sentence)

And when he did that he was no longer a child. So this was in my opinion not the achievement of blind innate talent. And not only the work of a sublime musician. It was also that of a ferocious, determined and highly organised mind. A man determined to school himself. And still schooling us.

D.

Jazzaferri · November 2015

If I can find it I will post the paper I wrote on the musical savant syndrome in context with musical instruction today.

There is an example of a young (early teens) autistic musical savant who upon hearing.....I think it was a Mendelssohn concerto, was able to play it note for note with feeling, very early on in his musical development. If you know your classical piano repertoire you will understand what a mind boggling feat this was.

Buco · November 2015

It always bugged me a little this claim that Django didn't know music theory.
Although I understand it's meant as being able to know and explain what you're doing by using formal terminology.
I guess it's another case of semantics but to me knowing theory doesn't only mean that.
If a person can demonstrate a full and complete understanding of a concept/s and show application of theoretical knowledge in their work to the full extent that person to me knows theory.
There's field of theory and practice in everything and some people are better at one and some the other but can you be a good practician without knowing any theory?
I think you can't.

NylonDave · November 2015

Was it Derek Paravicina ?

Incredible talent. And maybe one of the most dedicated and generous teachers ever almost always by his side.

http://www.teachpianotoday.com/2015/04/26/dr-adam-ockelford-teacher-to-derek-paravicini-on-teaching-special-needs-piano-students/

There is a documentary where you can see the contrast between Derek and a similarly gifted child. It is a stark one.

I note that the teacher of the other child pianist in the documentary used language that most people would find egalitarian and empowering. I found him to be a vacuous charlatan.

Last time I saw a Mendelssohn Concerto the player had more passion for socks than he had in the piece, still impressive though.

D.

NylonDave · November 2015

Here is more of Derek.

I find it fascinating where he struggles. At 3.19 he cant manage the rhythm of the melody of U2's 'With or without you'.

I would bet that his teacher would struggle in the same place and for the same reasons, it's the same reason Opera singers murder pop songs and flamenco guitarists laugh at classical guitarists. Because the have not, through listening and singing along or some other type of work, made a proper study of idiomatic rhythm.

Yet when Derek gets to 'Cry Me A River' his sense of style is much better and the rhythms of his interpretation of the melody much more convincing. Because it is a style he has studied.

I can't do anything he can do, but I can sing a pop song in time.

He wins.