Lookng at Django through Givone-coloured glasses

Lango-Django

Hmmm.... ok, so I've been working diligently on my Givone forms... then the other day I'm driving in my car listening to an old Django CD and I hear his solo on this version of "Daphne"

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... and I think, hmmm... I [i][b]know[/b][/i] he's basically playing over that 1-6-2-5 "rhythm changes" pattern... how come his solo sounds so, let's call it: "spicy"... but when I play over this pattern, regardless of what I do or how many clever Givone forms I try to use, it somehow comes out sounding, let's call it: "vanilla"

So I did a bit of re-recording to slow down Django's wonderful, spicy solo and try to see just what the @#$% is HE doing to make it sound so cool?

I've only figured out the first seven or eight bars, but later today when I have a chance, I'm going to share what I've got so far...

HINT: The first few bars, to my ear, are in what Givone would call "Form 3" or what non-Givone folks might think of as "G shape"... I'm sure everybody here has played out of this shape from time to time?

------7-----7-----7-------
---------------------------
---9----------------------
10----------------------10

Whoops, that's all I have time for right now... Saturday morning errands to run and wife is loudly wondering WTF I'm doing...

Will

anthon_74

On this very subject, I would LOVE to hear people's experiences playing lead over the 1-6-2-5 rhythm changes progression.

I personally, at this point, have to stick to phrasing primarily over the one chord. It sounds okay (if not spectacular), but the changes are so fast I find it hard to insert another chord's tones. Sometimes I try to hit the dominant 7 (V chord) but I'm usually too late and it doesn't sound right...

I do find play alongs with this progression (Daphne, Belleville, Swing 42 etc) to be a fun way to practice your major 6/9 form phrases...

Cheers !

Lango-Django

OK, the coast is clear for now and I'm back for a little while...

(Being retired is wonderful but my wife somehow has the idea I spend too much time on the old Django-ing.... but right now she's got a friend upstairs having tea so I'm good.)

I'm attaching a sound clip and a PDF version of the first seven or eight bars I've worked out so far.

I'm sure there are others out there with bigger ears than mine to help correct any mistakes; and we'll probably be arguing a bit about the most Django-istic fingering... but here goes





Anyway, if you listen to the clip and try my fingering, here's my thesis, though I am open to challenge on this---

1) Django uses the "Form 3" aka "G shape" for most of this solo, at least so far.

2) Even though this in the key of D major, he's quite partial to using the minor-third F note to spice things up a bit.

3) His use of that G major arp over the A7 chord was a surprise to me, as was his use of the Gmaj7 arp over the D to D7 change... how does that work? Are some of you other brilliant guys out there using similar arp substitutions?

Will

PS I didn't take a lot of time on my GuitarPro 6 version of the song, so please disregard the tempo of "120" and the (many) inaccuracies to be found in the time values of the G-clef notes... just look at the tab please!

anthon_74

Hey there,

Okay, so I listened and worked out what you wrote and I have a few thoughts -

First off, one correction I hear - The first 2 notes are actually the 9th to 10th fret instead of the 10th to 11th. It goes along with what you said about the F natural. Seems like Django liked sticking the minor 3rd over a major chord (very rock/blue-sish of him if you ask me)

As for the forms used , I believe the first phrase feels best to my fingers to play in Form 4 (E) of the D chord at the 10th - 12th fret. I tried playing this with just 2 fingers and it worked well.
The next phrase in measures 3 and 4 is definitely Form 3 (G shape) also over the D chord. There with that F natural thrown in again...

I do hear the G major chord (in form 3) that he uses after. Interesting....

anthon_74

one other thing - In terms of the G chord arp... The rhythm changes progression alters at the 5th and 6th measure - The chords for the 6th measure of Daphne are indeed a G, and G# dim, so the G arp goes right into that chord change.

I love this song, and solo ! We should play it at DIJ. Help each other practice our forms over it.

Anthony

anthon_74

Of course, now I see what you mean - He starts the G major arp over the D7 chord, and then continues it into the measure after the G, which is D to bm...

I don't hear where he does a G arp over an A 7 chord though...

Lango-Django

OK, thanks for the editorial help, Anthony!

Yes, I fixed that embarrassing first bar mistake in the numbering and added some chord names over the top of the music so it's easier to see the relation... can you see the G arp over the D7 now?

(I got these chords from the Benjamin Givan transcription by the way--- he has it as D//D7// G6//Em7b5// but the @#$% Guitar Pro 6 program wouldn't allow me to type in Em7b5 so I had to use Gm6 instead...

("Good enough for the girls we go out with" as my friend John Kelly from Liverpool always says... in fact, let's be brutally honest: can you tell the difference between a m6 chord and its m7b5 enharmonic equivalent? If you can, you have bigger ears than mine!)

Will

Jazzaferri

Will. Regarding the Gmaj7 on D. I am tempted to say if you learned your scales you would immediately understand :shock: :P however I will explain

In the scale of D major the fourth note is G. The diatonic IV chord of a major scale is a major 7 so for D is Gmajor7 G,b,d,f#

The f # is the third note of D major scale and the interval third of both D and D7 chord which is he note that determines whether a chord is major or minor.

Keep in mind that Django had absolutely no theory so he was just hearing that phrase and how it worked and using it.

Jazzaferri

Notes of say root position dm6 are d,f,a b notes of bm7b5 are b,d,f,a

The interval at he top is the dead giveaway as to which chord it is. Once one starts comparing different inversions it can be confusing at first.

spud

Lango-Django wrote:

he's basically playing over that 1-6-2-5 "rhythm changes" pattern... how come his solo sounds so, let's call it: "spicy"... but when I play over this pattern, regardless of what I do or how many clever Givone forms I try to use, it somehow comes out sounding, let's call it: "vanilla"

Will

as i said in another post, givone doesnt give enough ammunition in attacking sequences with quick changes like rhythm changes. denis chang o the other hand has written in many places some good tips for dealing with rhythm changes. you could probably find it on djangobooks somewhere- i got it from a french forum.

so for the A section of rhythm changes in The key of D
think D throughout
think D A7 (doesnt matter which bars, phrases can over lap different chords)
think D Gm6 (doesnt matter which bars, phrases can over lap different chords)
think Ddim7 (in the style of Tchavolo)
think d7 (blues)

so if you mix up these ideas you can find lots of different flavors.
you'll probably find in your django analyses that he doing some combinations of the above.

Lango-Django

Keep in mind that Django had absolutely no theory so he was just hearing that phrase and how it worked and using it.

Yeah, jazzaferri, I understood that the F# note was the third of the D6 or D7 chord; the thing that I didn't get was Django playing up to that note through a Gmaj7 arp... that I would never in a million years have thought of...

It seems from what you and spud are saying that once we enter Rhythm Changes World, the laws of gravity are somehow suspended and we can almost choose arps at random as long as they are somehow related to the nominal key: the subdom, or the subdom minor, or the dom, or the tonic diminished?

Wow, that's pretty awesome, and it's going to take awhile to digest and use in my playing... how did I not know or even suspect any of this stuff?

OK, guys, be honest-- am I the only fool out there who had no idea? Well, anyway, I don't care even so, this is a perfect example of why I love this wonderful place called djangobooks.com and especially our little corner of it here in the Givone support group... A GREAT BIG THANK YOU!!!! ... especially to you, spud... for helping me learn!

Will

Additionally--- do you think the few bars of Django's solo that I worked out seemed to indicate that he was thinking about the Dm6 chord (or possibly G9 or even Bm7b5?) in using all those F and B notes?

Or was he just sort of "blueing" the D major scale?

I understand that he did most of this intuitively, without regard to the kind of chord theory that we lesser mortals obsess about when analyzing his music... But since his music obviously works so well, and has stood the test of time, I think we can learn a lot from those marvellous intuitions!