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Teddy Dupont

I have to say Dennis that I do not think there is any comparison with the way your student plays after the lesson and Hono and Nous'che. They are light, rhythmic and swinging. He was heavy and turgid and certainly did not swing. No doubt I will be pilloried unmercifully but I tend to agree with Newton. I preferred his playing before. :shock: To me, it is an example of technique getting in the way of the music.

klaatu

But never mind those Hono and Nous'che guys. Denis, what I want to know is ... can you teach me to play rhythm like that great Canadian gypsy jazz icon, your idol and mine, Justin "Baro" Bieber?

dennis

fair enough teddy; but i repeat for at least the 3rd time now, that of course there are still kinks to be worked out in the second video, especially with only 30 minutes into the lesson... to go into detail, there was no consistency in tone in the first one, weak voicings, inconsistency in the flow of the right hand, strumming over the sound hole, etc..

the second one is a massive push in the right direction, and can only get better from there as long as he continues practicing that way... the things to fix in the second video would be getting his thumb to be able to properly mute the F bass on the Dm chord, getting it up to tempo (i purposely made him do it slow as he was trying to remember all these things at once), and playing with the same tone while reducing the overall volume...

In that respect, the second version is much closer to hono/nous'che than the first one... I don't know how long it's been since you've actually committed to learning something new and decided to break old habits but it's incredibly difficult, doesn't matter who you are; I'd wager even bireli would have to spend a few hours if not more getting used to something completely new; one can only accomplish so much in 30 minutes; and it's really a push in the right direction... I've literally taught well over 100 students on gypsy jazz, it's how it is every time; in the beginning, the student will always struggle with processing tons of information, and usually the best way to overcome this is to exaggerate certain things (a common pedagogical tool in classical music)... After a bit of time, the body / brain gets used to things, and eventually the remaining kinks are worked out...

here's an example of someone who's had a few months to practice it , look at the fellow on the right:



Unfortunately i could not find recent videos of him as he's since gotten so much better at both rhythm and lead ; the fellow on the left is also a former student but in this video he had only been playing gj for a few months

another one of my former students on rhythm guitar

CalebFSU

I am actually embarrassed by how much my rhythm playing can sound like the first video. Time to dig out my copy of Denis' rhythm vid.

Thats been out a few years now Denis. Anything in the video you wouldn't' recommend now??

Heretic

Clearly, the more tobacco that's added the better the playing is.

jlander9

The before does sound more swinging.. no doubt, the after sounds like a beginner..no doubt. but i agree with Denis. If this cat sticks to the proper technique in a few weeks he's gonna be swinging better then ever. Like with everything else that's physical (weight lifting, dancing..both of which i dabble in) you can see amazing results with the wrong technique, but eventually there's gonna be a wall and it will bite you in the ass.(injury, sound, etc)...better to slow down, take a step back, tweek a couple of things and go at it. in the long run it will pay off. Now if this guy was just playing to learn a couple of tunes, then who cares... but since he's taking lessons, this cat obviously wants to push it to a another. level... Denis, now you have to encourage your student to post another vid in a month or two... i bet it will be rad.

Bones

I see what you are saying Dennis.

Thanks for the info.

dennis

i like jlander's analogy... Alas this guy lives 2 hours from me, i don't see him very often, and it was the very first lesson on rhythm... I'll see him at Django in June actually, I hope he'll practice what I showed him..

In retrospect, I certainly understand the criticisms of the video, and I guess I should have clarified certain things; but I was looking it from my perspective, which was about getting the correct form and sound. One doesn't simply change habits in 30 minutes ; which is why i wrote in m reply to Teddy, that if anyone's ever gone back to take music lessons (or lessons in anything really), where one has to correct old habits or acquire new skills, there's so much information to absorb; and it takes a lot of practice (Certainly more than 30 minutes).

I still stand by the video though, the difference is night and day in terms of sound and technique...

I have to share a story about my time with fapy many many years ago; we spent most of our time on rhythm, and he kept telling me i had wrong, and i really couldn't hear what was wrong (to this day, I still don't because I never got to hear msyelf then with the ears that I have today). I spent about a month with him. Every time we saw eachother, it was the same thing , he 'd tell me "nonono you 've got it wrong". Eventually, maybe after a week, we met up, and I played rhythm and he finally said "THERE ! that's exactly it! do you hear a difference?"my reply : " no i don't " hahaha but apparently, i finally had it, for the rest of the time i spent with him, he said it was perfect.... to this day, i still don't know what the difference was

My point is when someone is not familiar with something, it's really hard to tell the difference between right and wrong, until you become truly familiar with it and therefore, a lot of times, you ll have to rely on someone who is familiar with it

The student had been playing GJ for a few years now, and obviously can play the guitar pretty well, and he definitely reached a good level; but he formed his habits in his own way, as many people do (as I did when I started). That first video is of course him playing at his best without thinking of anything; the second video is him trying to do what I taught him but he's thinking of every single detail i drilled into his head... These details include:

-full range stroke of the right hand
-strumming closer to the beginning of the sound hole (he tended to strum over the soundhole)
-getting a consistent tone on the chords with the left hand (the pumping motion)
-better voicings (this is subjective, but I taught him the voicings that I learned in Gypsy camps)

It's hard to absorb all this in 30 minutes, within those 30 minutes, whenever he'd do something right, another thing would go wrong, and vice versa... For example, I told him to try not to play too loud, he got the volume quieter, but then the left hand was no longer pumping the strings, and there was no tone coming out of the guitar... Exaggeration is a very common pedagogical tool used in classical music; I used to play classical guitar when I was a kid, and the teacher would make me practice rest strokes by using an exaggerated motion with the fingers..

This exaggeration approach works really really well when I've had to use it.. In the beginning, the sound may be harsh, but once they get the motion and the details in their fingers/mind, they slowly relax and are able to do it right...

I really like jlander's analogy though; I'm also a fitness/nutrition enthusiast, and every now and then at the gym, you see these groups of alpha males around the bench press acting like macho guys with their obnoxiously loud shouts of encouragement "YA, COME ON PUSH IT , YA MAN YA!" , and you see them benchpressing 2 plates on each side, but they barely go down... Sure they can do 10 reps of 225 lbs, but then so can i if i used a limited range of motion like that... Frankly, I'm more impressed by someone bench pressing half the weight but using correct form ..

Bones

BTW, that is a great video lesson of Hono.

I sure wish I spoke French because I bet that there is a lot that I could learn from his words as well as his playing.

Thanks

Teddy Dupont

I appreciate all the points made and I do have a tenuous understanding of the music having listened to Django since 1955 but I think the rhythm playing before is better than the rhythm playing after. I am sure that video does Dennis's teaching ability a great disservice. My biggest criticism of "after" is that is simply does not swing and if it does not swing, it cannot have anything to do with Django's music regardless of the technique used. The Hot Club rhythm, above all else, always swings.

It may well be that in a few weeks or months, the guy will play it really well but all we have is the evidence of the video and, on that, his "after" playing is pretty dire.