Check out my new beard!

klaatu

I get it, Denis. Some do, some don't, apparently.

But he's still no Justin Bieber.

noodlenot

so now we (well, at least i...) know where your avatar comes from Dennis!

CalebFSU wrote:

I am actually embarrassed by how much my rhythm playing can sound like the first video. Time to dig out my copy of Denis' rhythm vid.

Thats been out a few years now Denis. Anything in the video you wouldn't' recommend now??

That was actually my impression too... i mean, i play GJ just for fun and have nobody around to play with me, so at best it´s just me and a video - and since i have problems focusing, i tend to quickly forget about it and just noodle around (hence my lousy forum name) and im now full of bad habits. I guess it´s time for going back for me as well.

<edited for typo>

dennis

well , let's be clear as well, we all have certain bad habits or flaws, and we can certainly live with them for the rest of our lives, and choose not to correct them, both in life and music...

musically, if someone was just trying to play music for fun, he should do whatever he wants and however he wants as long as he s happy... i've had students who had been playing guitar for over 40 yrs who weren't professional musicians and who really just wanted to have fun and learn a few quick things, i never bothered showing them certain things like gypsy picking, or "authentic" gypsy jazz rhythm, i just gave them little tricks and whatnot to further enjoyment. It's not realistic to expect a middle-aged person with a family, and a full time job to invest hours upon hours practicing the guitar. That person would probably lose his job and family and friends hahah It's not necessarily an age thing either but realistically, what's the point in relearning everything from scratch when you've reached that point in your life? Robin Nolan has a similar philosophy when he teaches people who don't aspire to be full time musicians... and it's great. Gotta be realistic

However, this fellow who came to see me, while he does have another non-music related job, did go to music school at one point, and is very very serious about learning this; or else he would not have driven 4 hours return-trip to see me.. We must have spent 6 hours together... At any rate, I showed him how to practice; he simply was not aware of a lot of the thigns i showed him. It goes back to what I said earlier, when one isn't familiar with something, it's very difficult to notice things.

I repeat, that I totally understand the criticisms about the after video; I simply did not see things that way. I will also certainly admit that if we were to play a concert that day, I would have told him to play the first way, simply because it's not worth attempting to do something you barely just learned, in a performance setting.. that shit belongs in the practice room!

The sound in the second video is infinitely better than the first one and is the right step in learning to do things the right way..

Look Teddy, I am not angry nor insulted, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way either; but the fact that you've been listening to django since 1955 is not a good excuse (well actually, to a certain point, yes, but anyway)... We all know ol' lady Doris across the street who's been playing piano for 60 yrs but can only play Pachelbel's Canon in D, or Joe Blow, the rock guitarist who's been playing for 40 yrs but who still can't bend in tune.. I am not saying you are a bad musician at all, and that you shouldn't be playing music.. not at all, but having known you (vritually) for over 10 yrs, you've constantly been against "technique", you've always implied that one shouldn't worry about such things, and it gives the impression that music mastery just comes out of nowhere... I simply disagree with that point of view, as do all my favorite musicians, which include Django.

Django practiced his ass off.. There's a Bireli video interview that came out last week in French where he stressed the importance of hardcore practice. Unfortunately, learning to play an instrument, as enjoyable as it is, is really not easy, especially if you want to reach a high level.

I don't put myself at the levle of the giants, but I have invested ridiculous hours into my craft... I will use the example of someone else: Antoine Boyer, who hasn't even been playing for 10 yrs, his understanding of music is at a higher level than some Gypsies that have been playing their whole lives... it's undeniable...

I just remember edan email you sent me a while back (i just looked it up, it was april 2011), where you asked me to help you figure out a django lick that you were having trouble with; I replied to you immediately with the transcription.. I remember that didn't even have to pull out my guitar to transcribe it, i just listened to it, and had it figured out... I'm not saying this to showoff, but to prove my point that I trained my ears like a madman. I respect your musical preferences, that is clearly subjective, but then when it comes to more objective things such as the issue at hand, well then it's different. That second video is a big improvement over the first one in terms of habits and tone. If you don't hear it, then well... fine, i guess will never convince you , and i won't try .... and yes yes , i'll repeat again that i agree that i'd rather have the first video as accompaniment..

Acquiring skills of any kind is extremely difficult, in that it requires enormous patience, perseverance and sacrifice, something that not many people are willing to do... It started when I was 15, I decided to just stop using sheet music (except for classical music) , and i figured everything by ear... And I have to say the beginnign was brutal and frustrating; notes were ok, but i was totally stumped when it came to chords.. but i kept at it, and my ears improved; and now they are where they are (still room for improvement)

That Les Paul solo I posted somewhere above; I was hired to do that, I had never learned it before, and the client paid me for 2 hours of my time, so I did all that in under 2 hours" figured out the solo, learned it up to speed, wrote it down for him in TAB/standard notation, and filmed myself playing it and explaining it.

It's not because I'm a genius or anything , not at all, it's just that I put myself in a situation over 15 yrs where I would train my ears to be where they are today; and that is the result, I can hear almost anything and figured it out in a near instant and memorize it. I wasn't born with this ability at all...

It goes back to what I was saying earlier about familiarity... familiarity is more than having listened to django for 40 yrs, it's about taking the time to learn to do things the right way for x amount of time, which is what antoine boyer, gonzalo, bireli, django, stochelo, have done

sorry for the rant, and again, i mean ZERO disrespect in anything i said... but you did start this discussion ;-)

Jazzaferri

Its taken me nearly three years 2 hours a day to get my sax chops kinda back. Yesterday for the first time I could again hear when the keys needed to be oiled. They sound a wee bit different. It takes a long time for an ear to develop to the point that the mind/ear can hear subtle differences in sounds.

I agree with Dennis that it takes a lot of focusnand practice to master any form of music. It takes more to master a technically demanding genre like jazz, gj, or classical. Many many hours of practicing things the right way with the right feel. Metronmomes are great but use them for timekeeping and dont end up with a mechanical feel.

Stringswinger

I am going to side with Teddy Dupont in this debate. I have been playing jazz guitar on and off for 40 years. If it ain't swinging, whats the point? But then again, I prefer Django's post war stuff to his earlier stuff, at the end of the day Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery float my boat more than Django ever will.

Version one swung enough for me to respect. Version two sounded stiff and uncertain. I understand the point about relearning something. Perhaps to some narrow minded Djangophiles, a more correct "pompe" is preferable, but does anyone here think that the average listener can tell the difference? Is there a fortune to be made replicating a particular style like Gypsy jazz to the nines? (as if there is a fortune to be made playing jazz period?) Why not play solos with only two fingers to be more like Django?

If sounding like you grew up in a Gypsy caravan in Europe is important to you, learn those chord voicings and the "correct" pompe. I'd rather play with (and listen to) a player who swings, has good time, know lots of tunes (and learns them fast), tells a followable story when improvising and who gets the concept of groove. YMMV (That is why there is chocolate and vanilla, I guess).

Denis, I know where you are coming from. I just don't think everyone needs to go there. Some do, and you have created an invaluable teaching aid for them with your videos. Others of us are happy on our own journeys.

Cheers,

Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com

Newton

I definitely noticed in the after video that he was using a full range of motion with the strumming hand. That he didn't hit all the strings every time is just proof that he was trying. So that is evidence of breaking bad habits. That can only be good.
I guess my thing is that I am not that crazy about Hot Club style rhythm guitar. It sounds kind of two-beat and banjo-y to me.
But after watching the video I was trying some real authentic voicings with my rhythm playing. One particular M6 chord made me shudder. I said why on earth would somebody play this very ugly voicing. Then I realized that the gypsy kind of licks I had been learning for lead were just slightly easier to see on the fingerboard with those kinds of rhythm voicings. So you get inside something a little more and you realize why it is the way it is. And in the right context, maybe the sound would grow on me.
I just really love drums too much to go full bore into the gypsy rhythm.
I also have to be careful not to jump in a rabbit hole with everything I do; music, dance, martial arts, whatever. I am the kind of person who would spend far too much time getting really really good at something like Gypsy rhythm and then just quitting and never picking up the guitar again. At first, I am amazed that it can be done at all. Then when I realize it can be done and that even I can do it with enough practice, I lose interest and quit.

frater

Newton wrote:

At first, I am amazed that it can be done at all. Then when I realize it can be done and that even I can do it with enough practice, I lose interest and quit.

If this helps making you feel better, Leonardo Da Vinci in his youth had the same problem.

Teddy Dupont

You have clearly misunderstood my attitude towards technique Dennis. I have no objection at all to technique. That would be insane. Obviously the better your technique, the greater your ability to effectively express your ideas and a great technique requires endless practice. What I do object to is technique for the sake of technique. Where technique becomes the all consuming factor. Where technique seems to become more important than the quality of the music produced. To me, this video, in isolation, is a perfect example of the latter.

Clearly Django had a fantastic technique and for much of his life spent the majority of his days either sleeping or playing (practicing) the guitar but his genius comes from boundless musical creativity. His technique was used in the service of his music not the music being used as a way of demonstrating his brilliant technique.

I totally accept that my ear is not as keen as yours Dennis but neither am I tone deaf and I have listened to this music for long enough to know whether it sounds good or whether it sounds bad and whether it is in the spirit of Django Reinhardt.

With that, I shall withdraw from the debate and pop across the road for my regular Friday afternoon jam with old Doris and we can have another go at Pachelbel's Canon and she can tell me for the thousandth time about when she met Django and he said to her “votre technique, c'est merde”.

wim

I don't get this video. I see two pretty different styles but it's not like "the sound in the second video is infinitely better than the first one" ... :? If I had to pick one rhythm to play over, I would take 'before' guy.

I can kinda-sorta hear that the second is heading more towards that Hono / gypsy project pompe or even, dare I say, that daggy early-hot-club style pompe. Whether that's better is subjective, there are lots of different rhythm styles the 'one true way' is a myth. The playing and the voicings in the 'before' video are fine, a more modern sound like the younger guys these days. 'After' guy is good too - or will get there with practice - still sounds a bit wooden and forced, too much chord, and should prefer to use sparingly that m6 where the 6th is the melody note of the voicing (feel it takes away that 'nice' colour note from the soloist), and maybe the tricky turnaround can directs too much attention on the rhythm player. Time and practice will sort out the details and then he'll be able to make an authentic old-fashioned pompe too.

I hope, for the student's sake, you showed him like "Here's how you can get a fat Hono sound" and it wasn't like "this way is infinitely better, what you were doing was wrong, blah blah" cause that would be really giving the guy a bum steer ..

klaatu

Wow, I really can't believe the shitstorm that this has produced. People seem to be making the mistake of thinking that video 2 should be looked upon as a finished product, when it is in fact a work in progress, at a very early stage. This would be somewhat akin to a piano teacher filming a new experienced student and then saying to them, "You play very nicely and it is pleasing to listen to, but we can improve your hand mechanics," and then filming them 30 minutes later playing scales with the beginnings of new mechanics. No, it's not going to be enjoyable to listen to. It's an early stage progress report.

When you're trying to break old habits and learn new ones, it is a long slow process, and the early results are not going to be anything that anyone wants to hear. My wife can attest to that. Denis states right off the bat that this guy really didn't need a lot of improvement, but the fellow was obviously interested in going beyond what he had done on his own and putting in the time and effort to accomplish that. In hindsight, Denis may have made a mistake in posting a video at such an early stage, because a lot of people don't seem to understand what he was trying to show.

If you are satisfied with a nice swing rhythm that happens not to be totally authentic to the style, then fine. There are those of us who would like to take things farther than that, and over a hundred of us gather at Django in June every year to learn from masters, many of whom did grow up in gypsy caravans. It can be a rather painful process at times, but it's worth it to us. I don't happen to care if the average listener can't tell the difference. I can, and that's what matters to me.

I happen to enjoy Joe Pass and Wes (and George Benson, Herb Ellis, Charlie Christian, etc.). I also happen to prefer 1930s Hot Club Django to postwar electric Django, and prefer pre-bebop jazz in general. If that makes me narrow-minded, then so be it. Teddy, if you're happy on your own journey, then more power to you, man. I don't recall anyone telling you that you have to change. Denis is simply documenting one person's own journey, which happens to be different.

And Newton, if you're "not that crazy about Hot Club style rhythm guitar," well, I don't mean any disrespect, but why are you here? Take away the pompe rhythm and what's left? It's not gypsy jazz, that's for sure.