Check out my new beard!

Stringswinger

Denis,

There is much in your post that I agree with. I think it is great that you and Michael Horowitz have provided so much for those who want to learn the Gypsy way.

Sometimes a musician suffers from too much jazz education.

Practice does wonders for us all.

Cheers,

Marc

Newton

Frater, it is comforting to know that I have something in common with da Vinci, even though I am too old to make good use of it.
Klaatu, I am asking myself occasionally just what I am doing here. But then, where else would I be?
If you consider the milieu in which the musicians I admire learned their craft, I think you will see that it simply does not exist anymore in the US. There are no territory bands, there are no real dancers to play for, there is no apprenticeship; there is only institutionalized stuff. I keep thinking Berklee must be a great place, but then I talk to those guys and they just obsess over quartal harmony or mixolydian flat 2, flat 6 or whatever for hours and hours. And I am honestly not sure if they have ever even picked up an instrument to play.
When I heard that there were people who still played in the Hot Club style, I was awestruck. I envisioned jam sessions all across the countryside with violinists and stuff. I think you will agree it is pretty isolated and not like I imagined. Yet every guitar player I know seems eager to dabble in the stuff. So what is the deal? I don't know.
My question to myself is pretty simple though. What will get me to where I want to go?
The answer is always the same: practice. But with limited time due to family situation (Denis alluded to this also) I have to choose what I practice carefully. Every single bit of Hot Club style rhythm guitar minutiae might not be what I spend all my waking hours on right now. But then again, if I spent the next two years relentlessly pursuing rhythm guitar greatness in the Gypsy tradition, I could not discount what it would have taught me. Who knows?
So anyway, thanks to the Gypsies for keeping alive a tradition of learning and performing music in a way that is just not here in the US anymore.
Thanks to Denis for bringing it to us through the magic of video with the attention to every detail.
Thanks to Mr. Horowitz for the forum to hash it out.
Good discussion.

roch@rochlockyer.com

Hey Confucius...I wanted to comment publicly of the proverbial "shitstorm". D> Your last post pretty much hit on most of the major points that I personally find valuable....I don't believe that there is ever any valid "genre" or "style" card to pull out for any subject in life..specifically meaning...justifications such as "we have different tastes" "I've been doing this for X amount of years" or "different strokes..." etc etc. None of this is relevant in discussions relating to the learning process (which is pretty much all of life by my worldview). THe 100meter is just as difficult to win on a world stage as the Marathon yet genetics, inclinations, and a number of other factors determine what event one runs. There is no debate from those competing at a high level in these events if one is easier than another...both require 24/7 commitment to reach ones potential. Likewise, there should be no debate about how much effort, dedication, and sacrifice is required to truly play "Gypsy Jazz"....It's the same amount sacrifice required by a concert pianist to play Rachmannioff, or Ravel"s Mirrors...or to play the guitar like John Williams.
The folks splitting hairs are always compesating for a lack of something....In The guitar world there is no shortage of people who play guitar and have done it for X amount of time etc. etc....In the athletic world there are people who ran marathons for decades but were never even within 1hr of top competitors even when they were young enough to do so...They are usually the ones at a gym who are quick to tell you about their competitive conquests just like guitarists who readily dispense advice etc. etc. I don't think through the course of modern history has information on any topic been so readily available and this genre is no exception. Strangely I often guess that is spite of the access to information, the % of skilled expression in any area is getting smaller...

So DJJ will be my 2 year anniversary of my introduction to this style though I have been playing guitar seriously for about 10years. When I began learning guitar I was fortunate to spend significant & quality personal time with Jimmy B. who Denis mentioned in his post. Yes, it's true...Jimmy in his youth played 12hrs per day...and this is not just "playing" it's working at it. The year I spent with Jimmy I also spent all day every day practicing...not jazz...Violin music, Stravinsky, Bach...all recommended by Jimmy. It was slow going and painfully frustrating...In addition we worked on playing "changes" off of every chord extension in a myriad of possible ways....after a year my life went elsewhere (India) but the foundation was laid. I asked Jimmy about picking technique and he laughed and said to fix that is an entirely different beast and almost impossible to do unless you go back to the beginning....now lets go get something to eat/drink. Since I was playing a lot of nylon string at the time I didn't revisit it until 2 years ago when I showed up at DJJ. There I saw several players with a right hand technique and sound I had never heard and caused me to fall back in love with the curse of the guitar lol...

So with that rant I think this Genre attracts many people who think it's much easier that it is...and that it's not really jazz, and that it's similar to bluegrass (the 3 chords which I grew up on). None of this is true. From the little I know, Django was a seeker, an advanced harmonist, a true improvisor, and an innovator
...this only comes from 1000"s of woodshed hrs. and in that striving to refine technique...

It sucks to start something new and suck at it..but thats where anyone who started began...by sucking, and falling on our faces etc. etc.
I feel lucky to have had some serious exposure/guidance early one with this sound but damn it's frustrating.
I was playing with Denis a few weeks ago and on the rhythm I heard some wonderful variations and within those variations was a fullness of sound that I clearly wasn't producing..
And just so this doesn't come off as an ass-kiss vote for my friend, I will add that Denis and I don't always musically agree on matters of taste or aesthetics, and we both have some personal harmonic preferences, but this has nothing to do with the fundamental building blocks and the repetition required to even discover them....
So Again MR DC...Thnx for putting this stuff out there and bridging the gaps of right hand/rhythmic ignorance we all begin with!

Here's my humble 1 hr. lesson vid of before and after!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8R_dg1h ... e=youtu.be


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk-zmtHo ... e=youtu.be

Newton

Oh and there is a lot more to Django than Hot Club rhythm. In fact that was mostly not him anyway. And he eventually got away from it.

dennis

just a quick little update (cool vids roch! you've definitely been practicing hard!)

ya newton, there's definitely more to django than hot club rhythm, you should just do what makes you happy; simple as that, it's what i've always said to hobbyists

Anyway , on the topic of GJ rhythm, re: my comment earlier that it's actually not THAT hard with the right guidance; check out my friend Yorgui's son Magnio who started playing guitar last year if i'm not mistaken

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=562730537112014

I hope this video works for you guys... Anyway notice how he has all the right habits already ... This is not just one year of playing GJ but one year after starting an instrument for the first time! I have seen many examples like this in my travels.. Everything I mentioned previously is there, full brushing of the strings, lush voicings, full range of motion, etc...

Jazzaferri

Its pretty basic regardless of the style. After all the instrument does have six strings and it does make sense to be able to play all 6 at the same (well nearly) time.

It also makes sense to learn how to pick 3 or4 at the top and bottom or even just two at a time.

Dont have to, but the less technique one has the sooner one bumps against that issue and one loses the groove.

Lango-Django

Try this test, take any note on the guitar, and play Happy Birthday (assuming you don't already know it by heart , if so choose any nursery rhyme that you don't know) in time without messing up and without hesitating, this is a great test of ear training and the ability to improvise.

I like this idea, Dennis, and I'm going to try it...for ear/finger training would you recommend just choosing random songs to attempt this with, or do you have a more systematic method?

Phil

an interesting thread...and like many on this forum, who've been on this long GJ journey...watching the 2nd video reminds me of how it was in the beginning trying to learn this genre. It's like learning to ride a bicycle all over again!

I agree with many different points in all the posts. I too would like to see a further post of the 2nd video, say a month down the road, so we can hear the student playing what he learned freer and confidently.

I too am one of those middle aged old fogies with a tough day job/family commitments etc...who enjoys absorbing as much GJ as I can, in the shortest possible time, so that I can, number 1, have fun whilst enjoying making music with others. I am grateful to the likes of Dennis/Robin/Andreas/Neil and others as well as the amazing computer age that we live in, who've helped shorten the path to learning this genre, so that I can make the most of my time playing GJ, during my none-working hours.

Yes, I'm fortunate to be in one of those GJ bands that play "wall-paper" gigs...where folk say "you guys are great, your music swings, it's a lot of fun"...and the majority of folk at the gigs we play, Farmers Markets and the like...honestly wouldn't know the difference, or rather, don't care to know the difference between us and a top GJ performer. They simply know that the music reaches out to them, it's fun music, they can tap their foot to the rhythm and it takes some folk back to a time and place that they'd forgotten existed...the great swing era...and when Greg in my band starts crooning the songs from the 30s,40s,50s...it brings smiles of delight to some of the older folk at our shows.

Sure, we appreciate the huge difference between our band and the top GJ bands...but the technique that we have works sufficiently well for the types of gigs that we play...we're not about to be appearing on stage at any DjangoFestival in the near future...but we'll be there jamming and having fun! I might not have the greatest technique, but I play with a Gypsy heart!

I'll leave you with a story that I heard yesterday: I was watching a local finger style blues guitarist and she asked me if I played guitar? I said yes. She asked what style. Without thinking I said Gypsy Jazz. She said she was in Europe recently with another American guitarist, who when asked by a local what style he played, he said Gypsy Jazz and the local retorted: "Americans know Jazz, yes, but not Gypsy!"

see you at the jam
cheers
Phil

Charles Meadows

I definitely sympathize with Denis here. There may be small differences but I notice them. And I want to embrace the style as fully as I can.

Glad I'm not the only one who gets frustrated by how slow it can be! I'm a physician and have 3 middle-school age kids. I maybe practice an hour a night, and mostly Angelo Debarre's stuff. There's not much prospect of getting much more time either. One of the most difficult things for me is that in some of the other genres I played for years (bluegrass flatpicking, heavy metal) I did reach a pretty high level of ability. So to be learning a style where I still have to think about proper hand movements and technique is tough!

Anyone know when the next Django inJune will be (2014)? I would love to come sometime - but my son's birthday is June 23 so that makes it tough depending on dates.

Steveareno

I'm no technique freak, but this is a good example of wrong rhythm playing IMHO, on Minor Swing (plus he's playing a OM or OOO Martin style flat top). The melody is okay and he's a good picker, but when the rhythm kicks in it's like "hold the phone". I'm not hearing le pompe. Mi dos centavos. :?

Swang on,


http://youtu.be/rIwnsl2wXO8