why do all Bossa's sound like elevator music ??

Matt Mitchell

lol

Jazzaferri

True Confessions :shock: yikes.


Is it really that people don't like bossa or that they don't like bossa played badly.

Michael Bauer

They hate bossa, Jay! They really hate bossa. And all along I thought it was just me.

Adrian Holovaty has it right: real bossa is great, but gypsy bosses? Not so much.

Jazzaferri

Hmmmm in that case what about Samba or merengue

I will confess, I really dont much like that ....and one and two .....type bossa rhythm that isnt a bossa rhythm at all. You all probably know the one I mean.

noodlenot

what´s the relation between bossa nova and bossa manouche, could someone enlighten me? (sincere question)
i don´t grasp it well, because for me bossa nova is a vocal form, most times laid back and relaxed but, as Jon pointed, with a certain perversion into it (it´s brazilian, after all...): the way the voice entwines, pervades and evades the peculiar rhythm, the subtle dissonances, the harmonic ambiguities, the elusive, waving melodies. In the best of Jobim´s work there´s also (IMVHO) some mathematical thing going on (tinha de ser com voce, desafinado, one note samba,...), such is the coherence and internal logic of motifs and their development.
I really like bossa nova, but for me it almost starts and ends with Joao Gilberto (which was, for me, a very sophisticated musician). Add Dorival Caymmi, Ary Barroso (earlier, more "mundane" performers) and Vinicios de Morais (akin to the beat-poet of bossa) and that mostly cuts it for me. From them it´s mostly lounge, elevator, easy-listening nonsense that record companies still manage to profit from after 50 years... and counting.

noodlenot

oh, and regarding sweet georgia brown (used to be a pet peeve too), have you folks listened to John Lewis version on the Evolution album? Monk´s bright mississipi? Dave McKenna vamps on it? Mary Lou Williams back in the 30´s? a tune is what you make of it.

Jazzaferri

The standar d gypsy bossa isnt really a bossa according to those who invented the term. The rhythmic feel is wrong.

The other thing that I hear happeneing a lot in gjbossa is the rhythmic feel stays the same throughout the song, which is different in Beazilian Bossa, where the rhythm feel is improvised around, kkeping the groove though. I rather suspect that is hard for those not brought up with latin rhythms.

wim

I love bossa nova. It was my previous big interest before I got into jazz manouche. But gypsy bossas sucks so bad, they're cheesy and lame and ain't much fun to play over. The only one I like to play on is for sephora really, but I'd rather play made in france instead these days.

Thankfully all the fromage in the DIJ core repertoire didn't come out much in the djamming!

Gypsy bossa give bossa a bad name, because it's actually a very beautiful music before it got heavily commercialised after the 60s. Check out Joao gilberto, baden powell, luiz bonfa... also it's a great gateway into Choro music, which has some spectacular guitar playing and is very similar to gypsy jazz in several ways: the guys that do it are technically as dedicated as gypsy jazzers, maybe more so, the changes in the tunes are very similar to GJ repertoire, and there's little pockets of people in every big city in the world who will meet to jam on choro tunes by Pixinguinha and others. They call it a 'roda de choro', it's like the brasilian music equivalent of our djang-bangs ...

I sold my nylon string before leaving for DIJ, but before I said goodbye I recorded a couple of bossas on it because the empty living room sounded really good with all the furniture moved out!


a felicidade




canto de ossanha

wim

p.s. veering off topic here, but any one interested in brasilian music should subscribe to Estudio185 channel on youtube, they post always such amazing stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Estudio185

Here's the last one I watched, just check out the quality of this playing!

noodlenot

thanks for the vids WIm, they´re supper! are the arrangements yours?

regarding choro, one of my most intense musical experiences was being at a choro jam back in Rio, all the guys changing and passing their instruments around - i was too shy to take part, but everyone was invited. ice cold bear into the early morning, those folks could play and could drink.
older improvisational form than gypsy jazz (i guess), different kind of swing, almost a chamber music vibe to it, endlessly gaining momentum, i wish the streets could still produce that kind of music these days (ok, i´m getting old).

re: pixinguinha, i guess that Fapy is also a fan. Do you know Cartola?

all the best,
Miguel.