why do all Bossa's sound like elevator music ??

Jazzaferri · August 2013

what I am trying to say is keep the clave groove going either 2/3 0r 3/2 (unless you and your soloist are REALLY entrained...and play a rhythm that has the right feel...which will not stay the same pattern

listen to some good cuban stuff....or choro music from the current hot players...orsome of the non commercial brazilian guys....rhythmic stuff as creative as our best melodic lines...keepingf a groove but free to be polyrhythmic

Ted Woelke · September 2016

I know what you mean. I only want to play Dark Eyes and Minor Swing all day every day for the rest of my life. I hate new styles.

juanderer · September 2016

You have some hip elevators.

OwlCapone · September 2016

Hello all and thanks for this great thread. This is my first post. I read a lot of threads on this forum and get a lot out of them (as well as some frustration) so I thought I'd finally chime in, as I think this discussion highlights something I think about a lot in this music - the clear divide between what Django and his contemporaries set out to do, and what many players of this "gypsy jazz" music do. (Warning: Looking down at my post, it has become quite the essay, so strap in!)

Ted Woelke, I assume your post is sarcastic. Something in the sentiment annoys me as it feels like you're trying to mock the traditionalists amongst us. Having said that however, you are highlighting what for me is the reason for my disliking the gypsy jazz bossa, and could well be the reason for the univeral division between players on this topic - the rift between the classic Hot Club type of gypsy swing and the modern gypsy jazz sound.

In bluegrass you come across guys who only want to play traditional tunes that were played by Flatt & Scruggs, Stanley Brothers etc. I'm not too much a bluegrasser, although I play in a pretty popular bluegrass band with my family as they are completely into it - my younger brother is an uncanny Earl Scruggs impersonator as well as a creative swing guitarist. He hates playing many of the tunes called out at bluegrass (he calls it newgrass) sessions these days which aren't part of the traditional repertoire, and when I tag along I am inclined to agree. He also hates the playing styles of many of the modern players, claiming that they have great technique but lack both balls and musicality, and again I am inclined to agree. Further to this, the over-cleanliness of the recordings puts him off, and again I feel a similar way. Our distaste for this modern style of bluegrass has becoming almost a kind of running joke between us.

I feel I am much the same when it comes to this music - gypsy jazz, jazz manouche, swing manouche, there are many names. Really in this setting I don't want to play anything other than Hot Club tunes, or interpretations of my favourite older or more modern swings or ballads just like the HCQ would interpret them back in the day (for instance, I've got nothing against playing Oleo or Well You Needn't in gypsy jazz setting even though they weren't played by Django). Similarly to my brother's opinion of newgrass, I don't really like to listen to many modern players. I hear lots of them who seem to be all technique and don't really have it where it counts - true improvisation, resulting in beautiful melodic playing. Joscho Stephan comes to mind. (I know many disagree with this). I view players like him almost like talented boxers - they train hard, the good ones punch hard, and the best have a variety of ways in which to react to a given scenario, all with the intent to knock out their opponent. These players, like good boxers, train hard, hit hard (play virtuosic licks), know how to react to situations (chord progressions, dynamic changes), and use this training to "knock out", (i.e. wow or amaze) audiences, rivals, or whoever it is they want to prove whatever it is they are trying to prove to. I know that many of you will disagree but that's my opinion. I also don't want you to think that I don't like any guitarists other than Django - there are many players these days who don't have this athlete-like approach to the music, whose playing I absolutely love.

So let's bring these points back to the topic of bossas, and the disputed place that they occupy in our music, which to me is a result of the split between the traditionalists and the modernists.

This genre evolved around the swing rhythm, and part of the genius of its (arguably accidental) inception is that it works so well with multiple guitars plus bass. They learned to swing as hard as any big band or combo, using only stringed instruments, because that is what they had and they had to solve a problem - an insatiable desire for swing. The result was something incredible, it's the reason we all play this music today. There are many of us who are completely in love with the Hot Club sound and really want to capture the spirit of those recordings and this is much of the reason we want to play this music. We hear the recordings and we think "that sounds fun as hell to do" so we want to do it. And I don't mean that we want to recreate exaclty the recordings of that time, or play exactly like Django (I use his licks very sparingly in my playing, if I use them at all) what we want to do is capture the charming, exciting, romantic spirit of this music. There are also many amongst us (myself not really included) who are in love with the genre as a whole, including everything that the Hot Club did, and everything that came after, who view the Hot Club recordings as a part of a whole genre which is constantly evolving, the same genre which incorporates new sounds and approaches as well as new rhythmic feels and structures. They are in love with the genre that has its roots in the jazz music of the Quintette du Hot Club de France, and went largely unnoticed in the gypsy camps of Europe, there mutating and changing with time, before enjoying a massive revival. They're in love with the modern gypsy jazz recordings as well as the Hot Club, and in love with the festivals, forums, workshops and everything else attached to this music.

Before I go on I want to say that I have nothing against this position. I really do understand the desire to move beyond the Hot Club sound into new territories previously unexplored in this musical setting. It's just not for me, and very little that comes with it appeals to me. It's hard to say exactly why. It's partly the over-abundance of musical "boxers", it's partly the super clean recordings, it's partly the change in the rhythm guitar's role from the early recordings. There is a qualitative difference between Django's hot club, and modern gypsy jazz outfits, and it's not just in the quality of recordings.

The use of the bossa to me is a defining aspect of the changes that have put modern gypsy jazz pretty far away from the music of Django and his contemporaries. When I hear a gypsy bossa, it lacks nearly every aspect of the music that I fell in love with, and as such, it doesn't spark any of the joy in me that Hot Club-style swing does. I respect the players and the music, but it doesn't elicit even a tenth of the emotion in me that the Hot Club swing does, and certainly doesn't inspire me to want to play. Is it because most of the time I hear it, people are "boxing" over it? Is it because it is too far removed from my hot-club-based idea of what gypsy jazz is? Is it because I happen to simply not like the sound, whereas I like the sound of swing? Is it because when I hear it, I associate it with all the things I don't like about the genre today, thus dooming it to be disliked by me? In any of these cases, the reason why I like swing but don't like bossa comes down to the fact that I view modern gypsy jazz as qualitatively different from the music of Django Reinhardt, which is what I fell in love with and what I want to capture the spirit of in my playing.

Sorry for the essay guys! And sorry if I've insulted anyone. But I'm interested in what you guys think of this, and if any of you agree/disagree with the points I've made and think I need to open my mind up. I'm also interested to see if any of you feel this may also be your reason for disliking the Bossa, but you didn't know it til now.

Now I really should get back to my work...

Bones · September 2016

Everything evolves, otherwise it gets pretty stale??? Had Django lived I'm pretty sure he would have embraced modern styles including latin. But of course JM bossa is unique from 'traditional' bossa/latin. Just another style. And who knows how D would have played the latin stuff, probably many different ways. The Hot Club style was itself 'non-traditional' in its interpretation of 'swing' jazz. It's 'uniqueness' is one thing that made it, well, unique (aside from the obvious virtuosity).

Personally, I get the trad thing and I love it but I love all styles such as modern jazz, rock, R&B, Motown, and rap if it's 'good'.

Well, metal....maybe not so much....:-)

Buco · September 2016

Anybody wanna tell this guy "your song sucks"?

OwlCapone · September 2016

Bones - I agree with things evolving, and like I said I understand this evolution, and have nothing against those who embrace it. I also agree that Django always had his ear out for innovation. Listen to his incredible bop recordings - definitely an example of him embracing a new style. And also his later interpretations of "Brazil" - fantastic, modern, and latin tinged.

I should have mentioned, that I love playing bossa nova in a modern jazz combo. Undoubtedly Django would have played bossas in this setup, rather than his hot club instrumentation. I think this distinction is key. Its not bossa nova I don't enjoy, it's gypsy bossa nova played in a gypsy jazz setup.

I really do want to make clear that I am not against the evolution of jazz manouche, and fully respect everyone involved in this evolution. It's just not for me, and I think the reason it's not for me is heavily tied to my love of the HCQ, and the disparity between that and modern jazz manouche.

Peace and keep playing those bossas if it's what you dig

Matteo · October 2016

Isn't it just a matter of taste? De gustibus non est disputandum, you know.

As for myself, I'm not at all fond of the bossa à la jazz manouche either. I don't like to listen to it and it's not on the list of things I want to learn how to play. I don't know why. It's just the way it is.

Anyway, an early example must be Wave, on the first Biréli Lagrène album. Funnily, they start the song in bossa rhythm but change to some kind of "pompe" after a while... I quite like that version, although the "pompe" secton is a ltitle bit peculiar.

The real exception from the rule for me is, however, Tchavolo Scmitt's interpretation of the tune Jardin d'hiver. That one is sublime. Preferably with heavy distortion. Like this:

Jazzaferri · October 2016

For those not familiar, check out Oscar Aleman who was a contemporary of Django's. He left Europe in 39 to go back to South America. The Germans confiscated his National Steel guitar at the border as he was leaving...needed for the war effort. He played a lot of Tango in his early days in the 20's

1929 Los Lobos and dancer Harry Fleming travelled to Europe, and after the tour, Alemán stayed in Madrid to play as a soloist. In the 1930s he discovered American jazz via Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti. He then moved to Paris where he was hired by Josephine Baker to lead her band, the Baker Boys at the Cafe de Paris, providing him an opportunity to play regularly with American musicians who would come to see Baker and sit in with her band.
While in Paris, he met Django Reinhardt, for whom he would sometimes substitute if Reinhardt couldn't make a gig. Alemán spoke of his friendship to Reihhardt:
"I knew Django Reinhardt well. He used to say jazz was gipsy - we often argued over that. I agree with many Americans I met in France who said he played very well but with too many gipsy tricks. He had very good technique for both hands, or rather one hand and a pick, because he always played with a pick. Not me, I play with my fingers. There are things you can't do with a pick - you can't strike the treble with two fingers and play something else on the bass string. - But I admired him and he was my friend. He was my greatest friend in France. We played together many times, just for ourselves. I used to go to his wagon, where he lived. I've slept and eaten there - and also played! He had three or four guitars. Django never asked anyone to go to his wagon, but he made an exception with me. I appreciated him, and I believe the feeling was mutual".[3]
Though the two men played together, no recording exist of their collaborations.
Throughout the 1930s Alemán toured Europe, playing with Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington before forming his own nine-piece band, which would play nightly at the Le Chantilly in Paris.