Gypsy Picking...impossible

Charles Meadows

I would imagine that to follow Stochelo musically would involve a near complete "gypsification" of one's technique. Dennis and Amund could probably elaborate on that. For someone who loves GJ but doesn't want to become only a GJ player Angelo is more accessible I think. But boy does Stochelo have tone!

dennis

My comparison of angelo and stochelo's styles was from a purely technical point of view, it was not x is better than y comparison which i really don't like to do! they're two of the very best in the genre!

I stand by what I said, Angelo's lines are very natural for those who do the gypsy picking thing. Stochelo's lines (mainly in his compositions, actually) on the other hand are unorthodox.

It's like Paganini and Brahms. Paganini revolutionized what one could do with the violin, but the things that he wrote for violin, were very violinistic in nature. Whereas Brahms D major concerto for violin is considered by many violinists to be one of the most brutally difficult violin pieces, because Brahms was not a violinist himself, and wrote some very unidiomatic parts for the violin. If you asked a non-violinist to listen to paganini's music and brahms D major concerto, you'd probably think paganini's music was infinitely harder yet that is not necessarily the case!

I've transcribed tons of stochelo's lines, and a fair bit of angelo's. I've always found angelo's lines very natural with the technique, they sound very impressive when played fast, but really they just feel so natural, for those of you who are somewhat comfortable with the gypsy picking technique, i urge you to try out some of angelo's faster lines... take his intro to Swing Gitan for example, it sounds really impressive, but it;s quite easy to execute from a technical point of view.

then you have stochelo's "gypsy summer" or "latscheben" with parts that are much slower than what angelo plays, but are full of consecutive downstrokes, it is absolutely insane and painful!!!

Let me be clear though, I am in NO way saying one is better than the other! and I am not saying that it's easy to play like Angelo. In fact, if you were to ask me, Stochelo's playing is much more accessible than Angelo's.

Stochelo's lines from a harmonic/rhythmic/melodic point of view are generally very simple. He's kinda like mozart, his genius is that he makes beauty out of pure harmonic/melodic/rhythmic simplicity. Though not necessarily easy to execute from a technical point of view, his stuff is quite easy to absorb. Musically, everything he does is predictable, and i mean that as a compliment, everything just fits like a glove, and it is what you expect it to be. The proof is in all the people who play stochelo's phrases out there, this guy has influenced so many players... 12 years ago or so, when I first heard of Rocky Gresset, he was on his way to becoming a Stochelo style player, but ninine garcia told him to listen to other players, but even today, you can hear hints of stochelo's influence in his playing... The same thing with edouard pennes, who is starting to make a name for himself with RP quartet. I've known him for over 10 years as well, and if you heard him back then, it was stochelo 100%.

Angelo's lines are in comparison much more "tense" and spontaneous, there's a lot of chromaticism, a lot of melodic tension, a lot of rhythmic variety. It makes it very difficult to emulate him. Angelo has his licks for sure, but he s more spontaneous with them, and will often play variations of the same lick , so they're not always played the same way, whether melodically or rhythmically. I can't really think of anyone in the GJ genre from whom you can hear a direct angelo influence, unlike Stochelo. That is not to say that Angelo has not influenced players, but it's more common to hear some GJ guy and say "oh hey, that's a typical stochelo line (granted most of stochelo's lines are simplified versions of Django's lines)". What I mean by simplified is not a criticism either, it s like i said, he makes django licks very accessible. If you listen to the album seresta, and listne to the song Ou es tu mon amour, he plays django's solo note for note, but the difference between both versions is significant, django is very floaty in his rhythm (purposely so), wheras stochelo has quantized just about every note to fit perfectly with the rhythm section.

With regards to tone, angelo uses a wider hammering motion when he attacks the strings with downstrokes, it results in a snappy/explosive tone; stochelo is more subtle in his attack, which results in a very controlled, even and clean tone.

Two of the greatest!

Charles Meadows

Great post Dennis - thanks for your insight. it's too bad Angelo and Stochelo don't play together much. That would be something!

Jazzaferri

I really enjoyed your insights Dennis

DragonPL

To me this whole hand position seems a bit ridiculous. What about Mr. Oberg
His position does not appear to be orthodox gypsy style, but I would argue with anyone that says he does not sound authentic or good.
I would employ the "if it sounds good, it is good" when it comes to any style of guitar.

Matteo

Excellent post, Dennis! And probably somewhere in there lies an explanation why I have come to listen a lot more to Angelo than Stochelo. I really like the explosiveness, the spontaneity and the temperament that is so characteristic of Angelo. It may become a little to much even for me in the long run, though. So then I listen to Tchavolo or Fapy for a while. Or to Django, of course.

django is very floaty in his rhythm (purposely so)

I have a feeling that jazz musicians from the 20's and 30's often played in a more loose, flexible and personal style in relation to the pulse, than players that came later. Listen to trumpet, saxophone and trombone soloists in orchestras like Fletcher Henderson's. It's very floating rhythmically. Perhaps Django got that from them?

kevingcox

Dragon I'm not sure how you see his technique as unorthodox. I only watched the first 2:30 but he spent that entire time explaining fairly orthodox rest-stroke technique.

DragonPL

Seems like the angle of his wrist is different that what for example Stochello does. Also does he slightly rest part of his wrist?

kevingcox wrote: »

Dragon I'm not sure how you see his technique as unorthodox. I only watched the first 2:30 but he spent that entire time explaining fairly orthodox rest-stroke technique.

kevingcox

Ah, I see what you mean. Gonzalo uses a very similar attack and I found it very strange to watch at first but he explains it the same way as any other GJ guitarist I have heard.
It seems everyone's physiognomy is slightly different and while a steeply and visibly bent wrist works for many there are also people for whom the angle is much less sharp, almost imperceptible depending on your viewing angle.
Andreas uses many techniques (even mentions them later in the vid) and may anchor his wrist when he wants to but I don't see him doing it in this video. There are two issues with anchoring the wrist, one is that it mutes the guitar top and the other is that it takes power and fluidity from the picking hand.

DragonPL

kevingcox you bring up an issue that I have with the "anchoring the wrist, ...it mutes the guitar top". For single note playing to me that's a good thing as it mutes the overtones which in playing can be inconsistent as they are there for the open string keys (E, A etc..) but are not for keys not containing (much or any) open strings (Eb ,Ab etc.) Therefore to me muting the overtones makes sense just for sound's consistency case. That often was the case with certain classical guitar pieces, since in classical one doesn't rest the hand, we were taught certain other ways to mute the ringing out lower strings.