Out of Print?

Kcox

Hi Ted,

At the risk of this becoming a flame war I feel that I need to respond to what you have said. My post was never meant to piss anyone off and I'm sorry that it angered you. I didn't mean it as an attack but rather it was meant as an open-mided discussion of a topic, to share my own views, compare them with others, and have them discussed...

'm guessing that you're commenting on the institution in general and not anyone here in particular

You are exactly correct.

[/quote]I just don't appreciate being lobbed in with this crowd which is how I feel you were portraying me

My post was not meant to be personal and please don't take it as such. I think the only name I mentioned was Stu's because he shared a story about finding a particular album and I was referring to that story. I am simply not sure how you thought I was talking specifically about you, or anyone for that matter.

I know there are a lot of mind games played on the internet but I am not a subtle back-stabbing type kind of guy. If I ever have a beef with you I will let you know in no uncertain terms, like so:

I resent you saying that I am "new school and want it all right now, today, five minutes ago!" You don't know me, so I hardly see how you could make such a judgement about me. Maybe it is because of what I feel is a misinterpretation on your part...

If you recognize the work and effort put into it, and you appreciate the results, than why are you complaining about it?

Except that I wasn't complaining. Rather, like the thinking adult that I am, I was discussing a topic. I expressed exactly one negative opinion about what I perceive to be and aristocratic mentality. Perhaps I am a hopeless idealist, an irrepressible socialist, but you seem to concur with me when you say:

Your comments regarding the selfish characteristics of collectors is spot on, much to my dismay because I deal with these guys almost daily

So I don't know how we got from seeming to agree on the one negative thing I said to us being on opposite ends of some new school vs. old school debate. So that's that, I am done being mad about being specifically and personally represented that way by you.

Now back to the topic at hand...

I forsee difficulty in obtaining some pretty amazing things because what was once valuable trade material has been so widely distributed that it's no longer "worthy".

This is inded too bad, because the world is getting bigger and bigger, there are more and more people fighting over fewer and fewer things, which is a fact I think we can both agree on. It behooves us all to surround ourselves with like-minded people and enjoy what we can of our time on this sweet earth.

However, I think there is a difference between that and not "biting the hand that feeds." If the latter means that I can't even open my mouth/keyboard to freely discuss a topic then I'm sorry, I feel no compulsion to do that. Ever heard the saying "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"? I'd rather freely voice my views, opinions, and questions in a non-threatening way (which I feel that I have done) and be "stuck" with commercially available material (because, let's face it, I could spend my whole life just digesting Django's stuff alone) than have to hobble my own intellect by not allowing myself to discuss any topic that interests me.

I hope that my views are a bit more clear now and that there are no hard feelings between us. I do appreciate all the hard work of you and many others over the years, I just don't think that appreciation needs to extend as far as never questioning the world we are creating for ourselves as we live in it. Perhaps we differ in that, I certainly don't know you well enough to guess.

Best,

Kevin

Kcox

Argh, obviously my quotes got messed up but I can't figure out how to fix it.

Also, I absolutely concur with sockeye in the validity of his argument, the hopelessly idealism of it's basis, and in his conslusion that ultimately it is none of business to judge the decisions others are making. All I am doing is trying to understand, and I can't guarantee that I will ask the correct questions in the correct way in order to do so.\

Thanks for your understanding,

Kevin

sockeye

Argh, I'm getting sick of this thread too. I just took the Bousquet "Homage" & Baro 1949 folders down, so I don't think there's anything up there at this point that anyone should get bent out of shape over.

Maybe we should kill this thread, or take the conversation elsewhere? I feel like we're getting muddy footprints on Michael's nice carpets...

Ted & Scot -- have you guys ever thought about writing a book about the "missing years" of gypsy jazz? I'd buy it...

lgross

Track 5 of the Ritary show was a screwup by me but it was just dead air time between songs and I don't know the titles of alot of the songs

sockeye

John, please put them back up and make them available.

OK, done.

thanks.

pallopenna

I've thought about this a bit more and I appreciate the points that Scot and Ted made (except the "why don't you quit acting like babies" quote). I'm almost completely unaware of what the collecting world is/was like, but I can see that a lot of effort has been put into building collections by some people, and I think that's great. I was also unaware that the source for all the recordings being distributed was so concentrated (four people, I belive Ted said). That's pretty amazing really.

My original point SHOULD have been that there should be a clear vetting process in place for music that's uploaded to the site and once that process occurs it should be safe to assume that what's there is there to be enjoyed. I for one do not want to encourage anyone to open up all their collections or make everything they own available. I'm just grateful to hear whatever I can hear from whatever anyone wants to share. If that's just one track, that's just as cool as if it's a whole slew of recordings.

But this whole thread has led me to start thinking about another way for the true collectors (at least the ones who are interested in the music, and not just collecting per se) to display there wares (as it were). I don't know what the copyright laws are on any of the material that's being shared, but it seems to me that there are people (Ted, Scot, the two unnamed, others?) who have some truly valuable archival material that should be preserved in some way that goes beyond file sharing. I'm not sure whether this should be some sort of monumental compilation, or set of compiliations. I imagine the work for that would be monumental in and of itself. But some sort of archive should be made, a library collection, a gypsy jazz museum, something. This would be an invaluable service, not to those of us here (although I'm sure people would love it), but to the gypsy jazz community as a whole, and to cultural awareness in general.

Anyway, I was hot headed before and I apologize. I went out and smacked tennis balls for an hour and that seemed to do the trick.

-Paul

nwilkins

am I the only one who thinks it is bizarre that all these posts were needed simply to re-explain my original post about the importance of keeping some stuff rare?

I have not posted anything on the server that I acquired from Scot or Ted, nor would I without checking with them first about the specific item. That's all that is necessary to make this work.

Jack

nwilkins wrote:

am I the only one who thinks it is bizarre that all these posts were needed simply to re-explain my original post about the importance of keeping some stuff rare?

I have not posted anything on the server that I acquired from Scot or Ted, nor would I without checking with them first about the specific item. That's all that is necessary to make this work.

No, it's not just you...I've been amazed at the response to this, both positive and negative. But I agree that it can work with input from collectors, Scot and Ted in particular. When it first went up I hastily posted some stuff I'd gotten from Scot, and later realized I hadn't asked what he thought about it. Once he and I talked about it, I took those files down. I hope others will do the same, and I have to say that John, who's hosting the site, is doing an exemplary job. He certainly seems committed to respecting the views of collectors-well done, John.

I realize that even among collectors there are differing views about these sorts of sites, but I sincerely hope that we can arrive at some sort of middle ground. I've benefitted immensely from the generosity of the few real collectors in the states, and I think in my own very small way I've helped carry on that tradition by sending out many, many discs over the last few years...I've always tried to do just what everyone did for me, which was just to send people, free of charge, whatever rare recording they were looking for-I still spend probably two afternoons a week duplicating music and getting mailing packages ready for people all over the world.

The catch though, is this: if I got something from Scot, and shared it with a friend, what happens when the friend of my friend that he shared it decides he wants to post it? Maybe he doesn't know about DjangoBooks, and chances are he won't know where it originally came from, and then we potentially run into trouble. This is where I really hope the collectors will step up and simply say NO to whatever they think isn't kosher, instead of closing themselves off. Again, I really feel that John is set on doing this in a way that will be acceptable to everyone, and I doubt -especially after reading his last few posts-that he'd allow anything to stay that was the least bit debatable, but to make it work we'll need the input of those few collectors, because they're often the only ones who really know the value of some of these recordings.

Finally, I think it's worth mentioning that isn't (by far) the first site to offer these sorts of these recordings, though I suspect this is the most visible to date. I've held back on sharing addresses for many sites because I feel that they've got too much on them, either rare or still available. Compared to many of them, John's site is a model of virtue. Keep it up, John!

Best,
Jack.

scot

OK, some people here are idealists with good intentions, but as we all know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I’m not an idealist. I’m a pragmatic, blue-collar guy who works in a factory. One of my interests is finding old recordings of Django-influenced music. I have a patient and pragmatic method for that – I try to offer people who might have the things I’m looking for (people often hedge about what they actually have) and hope that we can make a deal. Sometime it happens other times not. You press on.

Regardless of what idealists like Kevin think, the world and the people who live in it haven’t changed at all. The world is still brutal and uncaring and a lot of the people who inhabit it are selfish, greedy and grasping. Look around you. Musicians are no different. I’m not a “collector” – more like a disorganized custodian or steward. I never said no to anyone who asked me for a recording. The most I ever did was add a caveat to please sit on something for a spell until it’s barter value could be fully exploited. Whatever the idealists think, for now these old recordings have value, and it’s foolish to pretend it’s not so.

Like Ted, my aim is to improve my modest library of recordings. Not so I can be part of some elite club or so I can lord it over everyone else. Everyone can and will benefit from that, and right now all that Ted and I are trying to do is not put any more impediments in the way of that aim. Have a little patience!

Thanks to everyone here for being reasonable – that’s pretty rare in this world of extremes.

Best
Scot

wayne nakamura

I'm glad to see this topic discussed so thoroughly.

I think that the original idea of creating a site which has out of print GJ music and/or video is a noble idea, but as the posts have shown there are many sides to this type of benevolent behaviour. The very technology that makes it so easy to copy material also makes it impossible to control the distribution of the material. Mary Honkoop (archive search her if you don't know who she is) ran into this a few years ago. Mary IMO was right up there with Scot & Ted before she passed away. Her little, self-funded opreation got to the point where she had to start charging for material after Samois or at other times of the year because she got so many requests for video that she had to start charging just to cover costs, not time. The problem arose when some of her video started appearing on ebay. Threatening emails were sent and I'm not sure if the situation resolved itself to Mary's satisfaction.

Ted's points about the value of obscure GJ as a trading commodity are well-taken. Aside from this, I personally, don't think it's anyone's responsibility to provide me with obscure material, even if they own it. Maybe they're planning on obtaining the rights so they can re-release it or maybe, they plan on posting their "collection" at the appropriate time as a permanent website with appropriate song lists, musician credits, material source credits etc.

Digital technology has changed the photographic world. Photographers now resort to embedding "watermarks" on there images for online viewing. The watermark is prominently placed across the photo, allowing you to view it, but not use it without paying for the un-watermarked version. I think with a patient, proper approach, GJ file sharing can continue without any of us having to endure hearing Scot or Ted sing... oh, I don't know, say... Happy Trails in French right in the middle of some obscure, never heard before version of PS I Love You by Baro from the little-known album "Baro Plays the Beatles".. Yikes!!

Wayne N.