Looking for a used guitar - some general questions

Michael Bauer

A big +1 on the Nomade. I already called the other guitar player in my band to see if he still has his Nomade, and if he wants to sell it. I'm guessing a Nomade would be above your budget, but nothing will sound better for the money. But if he does (and does), and the price is good, I'll let you know. It's a guitar I have personally played, so I can vouch for its sound. It's pretty darned good. Maurice knows his craft...

woodamand

Please do let me know, everyone says the Nomades are great and may be I can swing it. I have a pro-French instrument bias, since I play clarinet and nobody makes clarinets as well as the French, not even close, so I bet they have the handle on gypsy guitars as well. thanks!

crookedpinky

Seriously, the Nomade is a fantastic guitar - much better than my Dupont Busato which is twice the price. I'm with Stuart on the Altamiras, played and heard a bunch of them and the quality and sound varies enormously. Some have had really thick, sqaure necks others have neck like a Gitane, My all time favourite guitar is a Gitane DG250m. It always gets fvaourable comments about it's tone and volume. Not as loud but still great guitars are the solid top Ciganos. I had an oval hole model, took it to Samois and a number of makers, e.g. John Le Voi, commented on how well made it was. They have a very thin finish and an almost antique look about them. Great bang for your buck. Like most places we don't have a huge number of shops which sell Gypsy guitars so I've bought most of mine unseen which, even for a new guitar, is always a bit of a risk. With previously owned guitars they may be broken in but I've had one or two which could have been better in terms of fret wear so make sure you get decent pictures of the frets and neck. My most recent acquisition was an early model Manouche Moreno and this is a great guitar, not as loud as the DG250m, but is actually quite heavy and with a heavy finish and yet it produces a good sound at an above average volume. I don't know if any of this helps or confuses but my advice would be Nomade first, DG250m second, Cigano third. Of all the guitars I've experienced these are the most consistent. So, don't get too hung up on the brand. As people will tell you a lot of "the sound" is in your own ability and technique and those of us who've been around this style for while will tell you that a really crap guitar in the hands of reasonably skilled player can sound pretty good. Finally, strings. When I started I used to get through these - the G string especially - pretty quickly. For some reason - maybe having developed a better left hand fretting technique or Argentine are making a better quality string this is not as much an issue as it was. You can also buy single G strings as these tend to go first because of the thinner wrapping. But again I've heard guitars with strings that are so old they are brown and almost bare sound ok. Welcome to the confusing, conflicting world of Gyspy jazz.

woodamand

Confusing and conflicting - I think that just about sums it up. I will just have to make a trip to Seattle, and that might settle it either. Seems strange to me in this day and age to have such inconsistencies with new instruments, but there it is. I mostly play my archtops, and while they all sound different, you don't see of lot of folks having to buy a new bridge just to get a decent tone out of them. I mean, how the heck to you buy a guitar? Do you think this might be OK if I do all this other work on it? At least of course having it your hand you would know how nice the neck is. And I am happy to know that the Altimeras may have neck issues - not happy I guess but at least better informed. I still can't believe they have to have so much setup fresh from the factory.
So if I was to get a Nomade, are these in general just set up and ready to go, without having to get a luthier involved?
Complicated!

crookedpinky

I think Nomades and all Duponts are made to a more uniform set of standards. I think that inconsistencies in sound in other factory made guitars comes from the individual pieces of wood that go to make up the guitar.But at least the Gitanes, like the Duponts, tend to be all of near identical sizes and neck shapes within each model range. One advantage of a used guitar is that someone may have gone through the breaking in period and adjusted the bridge and so on. I have to say that my Cigano needed no set when new and apart from a few small tweaks to some of my guitars I've never had to do that much. Basically my upgrades have been cosmetic, e.g. upgraded better looking tuners, removal of red/green leather under the tailpiece and replaced with Chamois leather. As for bridges I've only changed mine to adjust the action not because I thought the bridge was inferior. The other great thing about a Nomade is that you can adjust the neck angle because it's bolted on so you have even more adjustment over the action and neck angle.

Stringswinger

If you seek advice on an online forum regarding guitars, you will end up confused because as they say, opinions are like assholes...

I have owned and played lots of acoustic guitars and lots of Gypsy guitars in particular. Here are some conclusions that I have arrived at:

As every piece of wood is different, so is the sound from every guitar. It is better to play before buying. A trip to Michael's shop would be prudent. Buying sight unseen without an approval period is quite risky.

Higher end instruments from a top luthier like Dupont will require less dialing in than buying Asian made factory instruments. Hey, in all things in life, you get what you pay for.

In general, the higher end model from any maker will sound better than the lower end models. This is not always the case. The best Gitane I ever heard was a DG-255 (my friend Howard Alden thought so as well). Go figure.

In general, laminated sides and back will give more of a "Django" sound than solid sides and back. That said I have owned and played some solid wood Gypsy guitars that sounded great and have played plenty of poor sounding laminate guitars.

If you are an archtop player who uses flatwounds (as I am), you will resent the short life of these silver plated strings. There is no alternative. You must use these strings to get these guitars to sound right, Argentines have worked the best for me. By changing the G string, I can extend their life somewhat, but it still is a drag. And it is not so much the expense, changing strings just isn't fun. Especially on a gig.

One of the great thing about being a guitar player is the journey to finding the right axe for the job. Gypsy jazz is one of the most demanding genres to master on the guitar and most guys who try give it up. Others become resigned to just playing rhythm. I have found that having both a D hole and an oval hole covers all the bases. I have two wonderful Duponts that fill my needs. I have owned instruments built by Michael Dunn, Shelly Park, JP Favino, Dell Arte (John Kinnard) that were quite good but did not nail the tone as well as my Duponts. I have played vintage Selmers, Favinos and Busatos that sounded great, but the necks (and the price) made them deal killers for me. I have owned a few Gitanes, and while serviceable, they did not inspire my playing, so away they went.

I would say, save a bit extra and get the Dupont Nomad. If you buy anything less than a Dupont, you will find yourself wanting to (and needing to) upgrade. The only reason to upgrade from the Dupont Nomad will be to get a higher end Dupont or a collectable vintage piece. And that will be purely optional. The Dupont Nomad will carry you through your Gypsy jazz journey as far as you need to go.

Best of luck!

Cheers,

Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com

Michael Bauer

Dana--

Sadly, Patrick got back to me today and told me he sold his Nomade a few months ago. So sorry, as that might have been the perfect solution for you. There is another one for sale, I think, and I agree with Marc (whoa…sit down!) that you'd be happier with a Nomade for a longer period of time than you would be with any of the lesser stuff we've bandied about. Dupont makes a really good guitar. Not every one is great, but I have never played a terrible one…ever. Stephane Wrembel's "Bistro Fada" the erstwhile theme song of "Midnight in Paris," was recorded on my old Vieille Reserve #54, and while that one is a particularly good Dupont, the recording will give you a pretty good idea of Dupont tone.

We'll save a discussion of the next step up for when you are at that point. There are so many great luthiers out there now that you'll have options aplenty! Dupont is great, and I am a big fan, but so are Mazaud, Marin, Holo, Bumgarner, Shopis, Gaffiero, and many others. There are lots of amazing choices these days for higher end guitars.

Not sure where you live, but let me extend this invitation to you: if you are ever in Chicago, please contact me and come by and play all my vintage stuff. You can hear the different types of major sounds that are available in the gypsy jazz world (Selmer, Busato, Favino, di Mauro, Castelluccia, etc), and it may help you decide what you like, and will certainly help you develop your ear to learn what's important to you in terms of sound. And it's free!

In the meantime, I'll keep an ear to the ground for any entry-level guitars that I know are good and are for sale. Good luck in your hunt!

Michael

Scoredog

i've had a real edumucation going to Michael Bauer's...done it 3 X in the past 2 years and I live on the Left Coast. I have a Dupont btw and it's great...had a Manouche, really good for the money.

Jazzaferri

The only thing I could add is a plus 1 for Michael. Everything else that needs saying has already been said.

woodamand

From all of this info I can see that if I don't want to buy and buy again in a short period of time, I should get a bit more money together and buy a Nomade or if I am very lucky, find some other comprapble used French or European made guitar. Still if I can I will roll up to Seattle to play as many of these instruments as I can, since I am as picky as anyone else when it comes to buying an instrument - espeically since this would be very pricey for me..
Michael - oh how I wish I could make it to Chigago, that would be wonderful but not in the cards at this point. Am I correct in assuming that it is unlikely that I would find anything under $1500 that I would want to live with for a long time? And other than the Nomade, other possibilties - non Asian - that I should consider?
The bad thing about this: gypsy guitar is only one of my jazz interests, and I don't even know if I would use this guitar in the traditional way since my band plays Klezmer, and early jazz and French pop music (like Frehel and Piaf) and not really in a traditional way either. Again if you have any leads, send them to me. Youze guyz is great!